Welcome to an exciting new episode of The Perspectives Podcast, where Dr. Susan and Marco explore the impact of technology on our lives. Join us as we delve into the world of healthy device management and digital citizenship with the esteemed Dr. Don Grant.
Guest: Dr. Don Grant, National Advisor of Healthy Device Management at Newport Healthcare
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/don-grant-ph-d-ma-mfa-sudcc-iv-dac-9588555/
On Twitter | https://twitter.com/Dongrant1617
____________________________
Hosts
Dr. Susan Birne Stone, Therapist, Coach, Professor, Consultant, Talk Show Producer & Host and Mentor
On ITSPmagazine | https://itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/dr-susan-birne-stone
Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
____________________________
This Episode’s Sponsors
Are you interested in sponsoring an ITSPmagazine Channel?
👉 https://www.itspmagazine.com/sponsor-the-itspmagazine-podcast-network
___________________________
Episode Introduction
Welcome to a brand new episode of The Perspectives Podcast, hosted by Dr. Susan and Marco. Today's topic is one that hits close to home for many of us: "Left to Our Own Devices: Healthy Device Management and the Practice of Good Digital Citizenship." We've all experienced the struggle of managing our tech devices and navigating the digital landscape, and it's time to dive deep into this fascinating subject.
Joining us on the show is the esteemed Dr. Don Grant, a media psychologist with extensive experience in studying our relationship with technology. Dr. Grant has been at the forefront of exploring the impact of devices on our lives since 2007, back when the world was just beginning to grasp the potential consequences of our digital dependence. With his comprehensive understanding of this ever-evolving field, Dr. Grant will provide valuable insights into healthy device management and the importance of good digital citizenship.
In this episode, we'll explore the fine balance between the advantages and disadvantages of technology. While we can't deny the tremendous benefits it brings, such as connectivity and productivity, we must also confront the downsides and consider the long-term consequences. Dr. Grant will share strategies, tips, and tricks for managing our devices effectively and responsibly, empowering us to regain control over our digital lives.
But why is this topic so crucial? We invite you to take a moment to reflect on your own relationship with technology. How have devices become an inseparable part of your everyday life? Do you often find yourself caught up in the overwhelming barrage of emails, texts, and notifications? Have you ever stopped to think about the boundaries we've lost and the constant accessibility we've gained?
We want to hear from you! Share your thoughts and experiences with us by subscribing to our YouTube playlist and podcast on your favorite podcast player. Engage with us on social media and join the conversation about healthy device management and digital citizenship. Let's come together as a community to explore the impact of technology on our lives and find ways to strike a healthy balance.
In this episode, we'll delve into various topics, including the addictive nature of technology, the generational divide in our digital experiences, and the way technology has accelerated our collective expectation of immediate response and engagement. Dr. Grant will provide practical advice for setting boundaries, managing texts and emails effectively, and coping with the anxiety that can stem from our ever-connected lives.
So, join us on this thought-provoking journey as we explore the complexities of our digital world. Don't forget to share this episode on social media and invite your friends, family, and colleagues to join the conversation. Together, let's uncover the secrets to healthy device management and become responsible digital citizens.
Subscribe to The Perspectives Podcast on your favorite podcast player, follow us on social media, and get ready for an engaging and enlightening discussion with Dr. Don Grant. We can't wait to hear your perspectives on this vital topic!
____________________________
Resources
____________________________
To see and hear more The Perspectives Podcast content on ITSPmagazine, visit:
https://www.itspmagazine.com/perspectives-podcast
Watch the video version on-demand on YouTube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnYu0psdcllTkgK7HdPLCEtb-uEXkPfGM
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording as errors may exist. At this time we provide it “as it is” and we hope it can be useful for our audience.
_________________________________________
voiceover00:15
Welcome to the ITSPmagazine Podcast Network. You're listening to a new episode of the perspectives podcast, get ready to explore the complexity of life with Dr. Susan and Marco, as they offer a space for open and honest dialogue, where guests can share unique perspectives on all aspects of life. Join them on this journey to broaden your perspective, deepen your understanding of others, and positively impact society. Knowledge is power. Now, more than ever.
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 00:53
Okay, great. Marco. Hello, how are you today? I'm so as usual, very excited to be doing another recording. But today I am especially because this is a very special guest. And the topic is one that is very near and dear to my heart. So welcome, Marco.
Marco Ciappelli01:13
Thank you. And I'm excited as well, when you suggested this. I'm like, sure. That's what I talk about all the time. I'm just gonna have another conversation. So I'm excited.
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 01:23
Great. So we have on today's show, Dr. Don grant. And the topic is left to our own devices, healthy device management and the practice of good digital citizenship. And I have to say, I was thinking about this. And like how fake Device Management almost in moments recently, feels like an oxymoron because personally, I've been actually struggling with this myself, but I'll talk more about that in a little bit. But Don, why don't you start by just telling us a lot. I know you have a very, very long and comprehensive resume, but just give our listeners and viewers just a little bit of hint about your experience over the last X number of years.
Dr. Don Grant02:13
Sure. Thanks, Dr. Susan. Thanks, Marco. And thanks to your listeners, as I was saying to you earlier, when I first started looking at devices and our relationship with them and their potential impact on us, it was 2007 and eight and back then I wasn't even sure if anyone would care about any of this. And as I also shared with you earlier, I certainly made a lot of mistakes in my life. But if I was wrong about this, it would have been an epic fail. One of the biggest and also cost me a lot of money in student loans in studying to be a media psychologist, which is what I am. That would they would have been awful. But I'm not happy that we're in the position we're in. But for my purposes, I'm happy that I kind of got in on this early. So I've spent the last X amount of years since 2008. Studying researching. Obviously, this is a topic that is fluid. state of the art in the morning is obsolete very often by noon, and not kidding or exaggerating. Every morning, I spend about an hour, two hours trying to keep up with all the silos. So I'm really happy to talk about this topic. I really appreciate people's interest in it. But I want to just lay out some ground things, some genres. And in the beginning, I am not anti technology. The fact that we can do this podcast is a terrific illustration of the power of good that media, digital devices technology can do, we can reach a lot of people, and certainly during the pandemic. Its ability to really connect us and keep us connected and allow us to continue to do the things we needed and wanted to do, whether it was work or whether it was academics. I'm not at all anti technology. What you said is what I teach I teach healthy device management and the practice of good digital citizenship. And absolutely, it sounds like an oxymoron healthy device management. A colleague was calling called me this morning, and was asking me for some tips because the tsunami of emails and texts that she navigates and negotiates every day. And the idea that now it seems there's no boundaries, and people can just reach us through so many different channels and devices and platforms. 24 hours a day, seven days a week can be extremely overwhelming and dysregulated. So that's why healthy device management is all those years ago as I was starting to develop strategies and skills and looking at impacts and all of this. That's why I decided to call it that. But it does sound like this impossible task.
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 05:09
Well, and and also, in addition to what you talked about, there's the we can get into this a little bit is the addictive nature of and, and how, as you said, there's so many great advantages to technology. But it's as is, as you know, Marco, you and I've talked about this before, about the way it's been used, you know, you can take anything, it's neutral. It's how we use it, and it can be used for the better, and it can be used for the worse. And so why don't you tell us a little bit about what do you see, as some of you know, you mentioned one of them, you got a call from your colleague about the overwhelming nature of everything that's coming in. So what what do you advise people to do for that? Let's start there. Dr. Don, what what would you advise? What did you advise your colleague?
Dr. Don Grant05:56
Sure. And again, there's so many different tips, tricks and strategies, and I'm just going to say to your listeners, or viewers, whatever is comfortable for you. So I've spent all these years developing suggestions, recommendations, tips, tricks, tricks, and strategies, some of them I believe, are across the board and can be generalized to just about anyone. But again, you need to decide. And as we say, I've been in personal recovery for 22 years, we say when the pain gets too great, that's when change happens. Right? So whatever works for you, in general, firstly, setting boundaries, I'm just going to start with texts. I don't know when this happened. But somehow we have a collective conscience, that a text is a 911, zombie apocalypse emergency. And the expectation is that we need to respond to it 100, immediately, no matter what else you're doing, I don't know when that happened. Because to me, and I hope I don't offend most texts. Or not that I did a little kitchen table, because I'm kind of geeky, like that. And I own that case, anyone hasn't noticed geeks and nerds and are running the world, they were right back in that movie River. They're all running the world, haha, but I'm kind of geeky. So I do a lot of different kitchen table experiments. And one of them I did was I took a month, 30 days, and I coded the emails. And the texts that I received in terms of their quality in terms of their need to be responded to immediately in terms of their content. What I found was about seven, a little over 70% of them. First of all, and I'm just gonna say the emails were nonsense, and threads that went on for 17,000 threads I recommend to people and if you like my staff, my teams, my friends, my own kids know this, pick up the phone and get the answer like we used to do, rather than filing you know, blowing out 22 emails about a time or a space or a topic or what color should we wear or what kind of food you are just call it can alleviate so many of those email threads that get lost texts, texts are usually not a 911 emergency that a zombie apocalypse is happening. Most of the texts that I receive, that I looked at, I would have sent to voicemail if they were a phone call. But what I find, and again, I can't see your listeners or viewers, so that's fine with me. I don't believe that the texts are something that is that are really that important that they have to happen right away. So what I have found is that I look at the texts. And well, let me say this, I'm gonna give you a little a little bit about my strategy, my texts, my friends, my family, my people know, if a text thread goes past three, back and forth, I pick up the phone and call and everyone who knows me knows another's because very interesting with my kids. Because people around me know that if it's going to come back because what I find is that most texts are just basic information. I also and again, open on offense. I feel like it's a lazy phone call. It's someone wants information from me. They don't really want to talk to me. They don't want to listen, they just want to know, again texts are it's an amazing tool for what time are we meeting? What do you want for dinner? I'll be there soon. What's the basic stuff, but I have this three back and forth text rule that if it goes past three then I call now this becomes an issue with my kids, where I'll be texting with them. And I'll go past the limit. They know and I say okay, and I pick up the phone and I call them when invariably they do not answer. It goes to voicemail. Their voicemail is full And I'm sitting there going what? So then I text them. And I say, Okay, well, I just tried to call you because we went past the 332 exchange. But it went to voicemail. You're texting me right now. But I need to stop this text read, because I need to now figure out how to text you your allowance. Oh, they call me immediately.
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 10:19
You know, Don, you're bringing up two issues for me come to mind right away. One is the generational issue. And the differences because, you know, I'm from an older now generation. And what's so interesting is when people say, Oh, yes, I talked to so and so I still think about that word as verbal. And most people, especially of a certain age group, when they say, I talked to them, they're not talking about the verbal talking, they're literally talking about communication, that's nonverbal on an electronic. So that's one piece. The other thing that I just kind of want to rewind a little bit and get your thoughts on this. Because I've mentioned this in in other conversations, you know, when you just described that whole emergency, you know, like they like most texts and emails, emergency, right. However, what's into it's what I've been with my mental health and therapist hat on how that has created this new level of anxiety in most of us because it used to be that when we just had the phone, and we didn't have cell phones, we didn't have texting, you know, your kids could be out and you don't hear from them. And you're not worried. But suddenly, if we don't hear from someone, like within a minute, the anxiety level, and I've done this, too, I'll admit it, I'm guilty of this, that I can feel so anxious in a way that I would have never felt 20 years ago, 30 years ago. So it's really interesting to me about technology, the feelings, mental health anxiety, and how there's this interrelatedness and how it's created stuff too. So I just wanted to make those two kinds of connections and maybe get some of your thoughts on both of those a little bit.
Dr. Don Grant12:05
That's great. So let's Pinterest the second half, because it's important, and I'm going to when we talk about that, I'm going to talk about how I believe just because there's so much to all of this, we could do this, you know forever. Good people don't put a Bitcoin in me, this is my passion. So but I want to talk about it and Pinterest, the idea of how technology has accelerated our collective conscience of immediacy, engagement and response. Put that over here, but I want to go back for your listeners and viewers, because you mentioned something about generational so let's just break it down. So you and I don't know about Marco but maybe Marco. We are what is called digital immigrants. So what is a digital immigrant Dr. Susan?
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 12:54
Oh, yeah, we were new to it. We learned it we did not you know, we came on when we weren't born with it.
Dr. Don Grant13:01
That's correct. When I was growing up, we dating myself perhaps we had a very not not real like fashionable beige phone that hung on the wall in the kitchen with the court. We even thought about answering it if it rang during dinner, we got the patent look from my mother recipes. That was how it was then we had answering machines where we would come home and I talked about this a lot. I believe that you know, we talked about likes and and we're all looking for affirmations and it's all about that kind of currency. I'm not gonna lie to you back when I was in grad school and answering machines were a thing. When I looked at this and reviewed looking at how did these likes and all of this and by the way, likes did not start with Leah and Justin, who created it for Facebook. And they talked about that. If anyone knows their history in the Roman Colosseum this is what you're really allegedly wanted. Hashtag fake news. We're not sure there's controversy about it. Yeah, didn't want this. So
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 14:10
wait for that our listeners that are not viewing sorry. Okay. Don had his thumbs up. And thumbs down.
Dr. Don Grant14:18
So I did Yes, I did. For those of you who are listening, I did the Roman Colosseum old story of thumbs up or thumbs down. But I want to talk about this thing because it goes back to us digital immigrants because obviously let's just for clarification, so we don't get too far off a digital native are our kids are the millennials the Gen Gen Zers. And while those things, so there they are like my kids, they're the ones who grew up and they can't even imagine life without this. How did we live? I showed my daughter a payphone in Canada. She didn't even know what it was. She thought it was something from where Superman changes because she'd seen the movie. But in terms of answering machines, I want to take us Digital Immigrants back. And I don't know about you, but I have to own this and be honest, when I would come back from home after when I was in grad school autonomically it's just a human thing about that what we need, my eyes would immediately Dart to that answering machine. I'm watching you both nod your heads, and that blinking light. And if that blinking light was red, suddenly, I felt a little bit of sadness. And if that light was green, and blinking, I had a little dopamine go through, I felt and it was really I never realized that at the time, but it would be one of the first things I would do. When I would walk back home, get back home after grad school class, I would walk in my apartment and I would look, my eyes would I didn't teach it to do that. So the idea of this, I had it in terms of people thinking about me likes and all that. All right, but for now, and in terms of what you were talking about, the acceleration, I believe, of the immediacy of expectation of engagement, response, and gratification. I think technology and all of these platforms and all of the abilities to connect with us. I will also because I want to make sure that I put this in here, people ask me a lot of times, you know, certain questions, I get a lot. One of them is one do I think this will happen? In other words, when did we cross the inflection point. I believe that that was in 2007 when the iPhone happened and was launched, and suddenly the Internet became portable, I believe personally, that the invention, the the iPhone, because before that it was the BlackBerry which we were thought we were funny calling it a Crackberry as a joke thinking we were addicted to it, we could text. But I believe personally that all of this changed, and we were not ready for it. The kids brains were not ready to put planes or plastic but they weren't ready for all the stimulation. We didn't understand it. But I believe it's just my theory that all of this changed forever. When the iPhone was released, and the Internet became portable. And suddenly we are not only able to be Lord into all of the wonderful things, it's amazing. You know, it's an amazing device. It's I love when people call it a phone. Is it really a phone anymore? No, it is everything is our flashlight. It is our apps, it is our communication. It is our banking, it is our tools, it is our camera, it is our it is our it is our. So I don't think it's going to be called a smartphone much longer. But I believe that that's when everything changed, and the immediacy of response. Because when that phone was ringing, and we all knew that we all had a phone at home. And we had an answering machine, perhaps there was not the expectation of immediate response. The collective belief and knowledge now is that we all have these little devices tethered to us somewhere. So the expectation is immediate response in Ireland with this, that idea of texting. Yes, it's absolutely I don't know, when this happened that we all just decided, we'll let a phone call go to voicemail. And God forbid a phone call comes up with an unknown caller, which is a whole other thing. But we believe somehow that a text requires an immediate response. And if I don't respond, then I have my friends will say did you get my text? Are you dead? Yes, I'm dead. Yes, my chatbot This is for you, Marco for live chat bot is actually responding. And then and we won't get into this or maybe will later the things that come with it that dreaded ellipses.dot.in which if we are horrified if we get that all time stops, there can be a zombie apologetic clock populates, and we are not going to move until that ellipses have reconciled and God forbid, it starts we're paused, time is gone. And then it disappears. Oh my goodness. So that that's a whole other part of texting.
Marco Ciappelli19:08
All right, I'm gonna bring it to the next level with social media. But before we do that, I want to make a comment on what you said, because it really made me think I'm like you I'm, I grew up with the analog technology, and I love it. And I love the fact that people like us can actually compare we've made the jump into the digital and we can think like, I don't know, I can think not that old. But I can think the text is like a telegraph. I can think of the cell phone as I don't know an express this courier that is going to reach your Pony Express instead of a regular mail. Because I remember when I got my first mobile phone, which was really big with Yeah, and they lasted like, I don't know, four hours the battery or something like that. It was like we're gonna get these I would think I was at mean, it's for emergency. So I want to make this observation like maybe we wired ourselves to cell phone equal emergency. So when that ring, when the texts come in, something comes in our head like this must be important. I mean, at least at that time, I don't know if like, what call me, if somebody call me on my cell phone at that time, it means that he really, really, really wanted to talk.
Dr. Don Grant20:31
But I want to point out so it doesn't get lost here, Marco looking historically, cell phones and using minutes was super expensive, right? We also have to look at as we started, as digital immigrants got those moved farms. And then we have to remember and we can't forget about that. Yes, they were for emergencies, but they were also not free like they are now. It was by the minute, it was you at a certain amount, and it was really expensive. So it was the you know, back phone that you would only use if you needed to help
Marco Ciappelli21:05
text to you will pay for texting. But it still
Dr. Don Grant21:08
says digital texting charges may apply. Maybe that's somewhere in like Mars or something. But the digital immigrants don't know that to that. It's always been free plants that their parents pay for. And so that's a piece for us. Yes, it was something that we weren't we weren't going to use that phone, because it was going to cost us
Marco Ciappelli21:28
Yeah. And I like to compare everything that he was in communication in television, you know, radio. Now all of this is in that little, let's call it phone, that device. So we watch TV in there, we listen to the radio, the podcast, whatever you want to call it still radio is. And we use it for gaming, we use it for everything. But again, I would like to opportunity to know what you think about, yes, the smartphone was a big jump. But social media, I feel like that was what really changed a lot in the way that we perceive these online, digital life. And I would like to hear your opinion on that. Especially talking about narrative. Consumers in terms of them, social media has always been there, social media hasn't been there for that long. And honestly, we're just so used to it that we couldn't live without it probably.
Dr. Don Grant22:33
Well, I don't I don't know if we couldn't but we want. You said the word compare. And I use this a lot with social media, especially in terms of how we can be dysregulated. And what's going on with adolescents right now. And I call it competitive despair. Social media is wonderful. I went to my cousin's wedding, my niece's wedding, sorry, last year back east, I live in LA. And it was wonderful to see my family and I've been able to connect with them on social media, I knew what was going on with them. I didn't feel like I was walking in aware. However, I'm going to just throw out a couple of things. Number one, I want people to remember if it is free, you are the product. Exactly. The other thing is I want to remind people that social media is self curated. And I tell the kids, they're the first generation. And this is by the way, the only time in history people ask me, Why do I do this? It's hard. Gosh, what was I thinking? I wasn't clearly. But this is the only time in history where the digital immigrants and the digital natives will cohabit this planet after we've abdicated to them. You don't miss what you don't know. I can't see your listeners or your viewers. I'm just gonna put out there, I still believe in the art of the written handwritten love letter. And thank you notes. I believe that talking to people in person creates a more covalent bond, I believe you can write LOL, all day long. And it's never going to have the same attachment and impact as it will when you're looking and with your friends and actually laugh. I'm going to suggest that when you think back about your relationships and your life experiences, the times you remember, are not when you are in a text thread, not some meme or GIF, which are fine and fun. I send them to but it's when you spend time with people actually face to face in real life IRL as the kids say. So I need to keep doing this even though I know we're going to lose this battle. And once we all disappear into virtual reality and whatever comes after that, but I need to find it because I need to help the kids especially understand the valence vitality and value of interpersonal face to face relationships. I also tell the kids they're the first generation these digital immigrants. This is the first generation in history that has the ability to create and curate their autobiography. From the moment you put your first digital imprint. On anywhere in the metaverse, it is forever archived. Even if you delete it, it's either on a server or someone may have screen captured it. And I tell the kids gently that they are the first ones usually used to have to have someone a biographer writes your biography, or you wrote your own and you had to be really someone of note. Now, every influencer thinks there's someone I've known and everyone social media thinks we all want to know if they had for breakfast. So we've gotten into this idea of that we are also important, and we all are special and important, but I don't know the world needs to know everything we do. But I tell the kids be careful. Because people look at this now I don't even look at CVS or resumes. When I hire anymore. I go right to social media, so to colleges, so to employers, but I tell the kids, the stuff you're posting right now, is this something you would if you have them want your great grandchildren to see. And all of this is also forever archived and being beamed out to space. I am convinced if there are alien life forms, we are so safe because if Keeping Up With The Kardashians is being beamed out into space, any intelligent life form will look at that and say, Oh, no, no, they need to know we're out. Hashtag Sorry, not sorry, Kardashians. But the idea of social media and all of the things that go with it and the dysregulation. There's some great things about it. But I think that we didn't understand it. Again, we're digital immigrants. And I believe it became Lord of the Flies. Because we let a bunch of kids create it, run it, rule it, and we didn't really know and we were busy playing around on Facebook and whatever we were doing, because the kids all left us when we went on it and went on created their own new ones. But there's always going to be a route there's always going to be a jack and there's always going to be a piggy that the amount of cyber aggression and predatory behaviors, the amount of dysregulation, the ideas of selfies and the idea of filter culture and all of these things that the young brains are not able to process the impulsivity, their prefrontal cortexes that are being overflowed. The idea of being left out the idea of comparing despairing and adults feel itchy. So as an adult, I challenged adults, I say, okay, so you you ever do scrolled? You ever been on social for more than 15 minutes? What happens? You're looking at people, you're judging them. You're wondering why your life sucks, and their life looks so great. But I tell the kids, they're the first ones. This digital autobiography, no matter what iteration we have of the metaverse or whatever it is, it will be discoverable for ever. So I'll end with this on this point. I thought many times, it would have been super cool. If my parents had Instagram when they were teenagers. Boy, would that have helped me when I was a teenager? Because I would have had hard evidence and said, Oh, Dad, really? You're coming in? What is this in your hand? And that does not look like mom on your lap?
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 27:57
You know, Don, I want to go back to something that you kind of slipped in? Oh, that was a lot, right? No, but I think it was an important point. Because you said, if it's free, then you have the right. And I want to get to that angle for a moment. Because one of the things that I know personally, I've struggled with is reading in the morning with when I pick up my phone to look at the time which I've actually had a shift to looking at a watch instead of the phone. Because as soon as I open it up, and then I see a notification, which I've really gotten rid of most of them. But if something catches my eye and I start to read it, I'm done. And it's been a real challenge. But one of the things that I became aware of and it's really helped me because we can feel like there's something wrong with us. If we feel that addiction to our device, or whatever form we're feel addicted to. But what's helped me is to realize there is so much behind getting us addicted. There is millions, billions of dollars and manpower for companies that want to keep their whole goal is to keep us on that device on that platform on looking because that's how they're making money. And right now while we still in our society value money, that's what it comes down to. They're not thinking about some companies are but some of them most of them are not in terms of what's getting our addiction going. They're not thinking about healthy device management, or good digital citizenship is you talk about their thinking about bottom line money. So could you speak on that?
Dr. Don Grant29:39
Yeah, and of course that's true. And the whistleblowers now we're all coming forward. Right? So the creators of all this, you know, Tristan did it Lea Justin did it. You know, there's people Chamath has done it. There's the creators of olives. It kind of reminds me and I hope that I don't cause too much ruckus and robs you of the tobacco industry controversy. Absolutely. Okay, so you know, they knew they knew I do. And I introduce a couple of the projects that I'm working on, I'm writing a chapter for handbook on one of them is on social media. And the other is on the addictive properties. So we're looking at how this all works, certainly, at the people who created are coming forward and saying, Yeah, we knew Steve Jobs did not let his kids have any of the products his company created. And there's a whole list of things. If you look at and I do this in presentations, I have a whole slide and and I call it don't get high on your own supply. And that's a reference to recovery of addiction. And I list all of this creators, all of the science, all of the Silicon Valley, people behind all this and their views, there's a school up in Silicon Valley that a lot of the kids of these tech giants and owners and creators of companies go to and they do not let screens. They're very limited with it. So it's starting to come out that they knew. But certainly the idea is, of course, it's Congress. The idea is to Lloris into this casino. And they leverage something in the design, that's called a part of in the limbic system, which is all of our pleasure, all our reconditioning. And I'm going to equate it to what I've been talking about for years and other people agree with me, I equate it to the reason why someone will sit at a slot machine for hours and hours and hours, because it's called, they're leveraging something called the variable reward system. And what that means is that you never know what you're going to get, but you're going to stay and stay. So if you think about a slot machine, and I'll do it for your your viewers, and I'll show it's pulling a lever, and then I'll describe describe a course, in a slot machine, we can imagine you pull a lever, the designers of this couldn't obviously put a lever on a device, it was too awkward, it wouldn't fit in a pocket or a person, they wanted you to have it. So what did they do instead? It's the same motion. It's the same motion that they use, and it triggers the same Olympic variable words. It's the scrolling. It's the same thing. What are you going to get? What am I going to get? What am I going to get? And then they do design and clickbait and they bring you in and sensationalized that do it. And I'll tell you that in terms of social media, again, my friends in my close orbit, they know what's going on in my life, I share that with them. So they know they know I'm doing this podcast today. I'm excited about it. I told them. So I don't need to know the answer to this. But three times three different points in every presentation I've done forever. I have the same slide. And it's a question. And the question is, if you need to post something on social media, what is your motivation? What do you need? Why do you need the world to know? And you must have a reason. But if you're close friends, are the people who are in your life IRL, or that you talk to regularly know what's going on? Why do we need to put things out on social media. And that's a choice, but I really want you to consider it. And if it's a good idea to post today, it's probably a good idea to post tomorrow, because we're so busy trying to harvest and cultivate likes, and the algorithms, algorithms, algorithms, they're always trying to keep us we're up against a lot losing system, the coders. They know how to do it, they know how to feed us what it is we're looking for. For example, if I posted I was on this podcast right now on one of my social networks, and Marco and Susan, were my friends. And you both immediately liked it, it's very possible that I would be restricted that it would only be Susan's like that showed up right now, even if you simultaneously posted, and then in the Les Marcos because they want you to keep coming back. And the goal is to get you in this casino, keep you there. And it also people are so worried about it that I'm going to I don't know about you. But when people post on social media, very often. All they perceive rate on is how it was received by strangers. And so you keep going back in, they're going back in how many likes how many likes, and they restrict them, like I said, so they're going to keep you coming back in. But I also say that people were so busy trying to harvest and cultivate that cultivate affirmations and responses from people who are protected by the online disinhibition effect, which means that we will say and do things online we normally wouldn't. What about the people who aren't responding and I think that anyone who uses social will understand or overstand this. We're so busy looking at if Marco and Dr. Susan liked our post, we're forgetting about all the people out there who are judging us and not posting and not responding and what they're thinking of us and I think we all if we're honest, can admit that we have seen some posts maybe even from people close to us that were very surprising, let's just say, because we looked at it, and we had a different thought about that person.
Marco Ciappelli35:15
So a quick comment, so sure that I love the reference to the casino because they know something about psychology a lot, right? So,
Dr. Don Grant35:27
by the way, Marco, these companies all hired psychologists, yeah, yeah, I, they hire people like Suzy, they hire media psychologists and psychologists to learn about the brain and how to leverage and subject data. So this is not random.
Marco Ciappelli35:43
Absolutely. That's why I'm thinking that reference to the likes, are almost like that immediate gratification of getting a couple of tokens back, waiting for the big payoff to come. And maybe that's the 15 seconds of fame, the Andy Warhol one on TV, then now we get when we get maybe, I don't know, 20 likes and a couple of retweets. But what I want to ask you, in function of all of this, you talk about education, we we know we are in the industry, or in technology, or sociology, or psychology, we know. And what I always ask to the audience, or the guests that I have on the show, when we talk about technology in society, it's always like who is educating the educators, because I feel there is a big gap of a generation that jumped into the new media without really understanding it, getting trapped into it, and then give it to their kids to the next generation. So we have a huge unknown there, but we trust the device, we trust the social media, well, guess what you are? The product. So reconnecting all of that. I know that's part of what you do is you educate people. Are we a little too late for that? Is there a magic trick that we can actually lower back the teachers to teach kids how to use it instead of say, don't? Don't bring the fun in school? Learn how to use it. Let's not ban shaggi tp let's teach the students how to do research with it. So I don't know, just a little provocative here. But are we too late? What can we do?
Dr. Don Grant37:37
Oh, my goodness, if we're too late.
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 37:40
And too much of an optimist.
Marco Ciappelli37:42
Never try. No, but I have to bring this stop. Yeah.
Dr. Don Grant37:46
Great point. I'm going to answer it. But I'm just saying personally, when I said earlier, do I want to do this, I wish I would have just studied something else that was static, the work it takes, but I committed to this because again, we are the last digital immigrants? Um, no, I don't believe it's too late. Because I also believe it's been something I hate. I'm just gonna put it out there for the psychologists who understand what I'm talking about. I hate grounded theory. I hate it. But that's where we are because we didn't get it. And so no, I don't think we're too late. Have we made mistakes? I mean, kids are suiciding over social media and cyber aggression. I mean, what is it going? But no, I don't think we're too late. Because we have this opportunity. Um, look, the conversations that are happening there the bills that were, you know, the legislation that was passed in the UK, the bills that are in Congress, are these going to stick or stand? No, but we need to have these conversations. I'm going to tell you, Marco, as I said earlier, in 2008 2009, when I embarked upon this crazy journey, that I had no idea it would lead to me being able to that people like Dr. Susan, and you would invite me to talk about it. And I had no concept of that. Nobody really knew. So this is pretty nascent. And we're learning and we're making mistakes, but the conversations are happening now where they're gonna go, what the limitations are, I mean, even this morning, so this podcast is being filled up. I can say this on March 31 2023. Just this morning, is the cabal of big tech people, including Elon Musk, who are saying we need to pause on AI. There's such a rush to get these AI products out. And this could be super dangerous. So the idea of commerce versus integrity and safety is coming right now. And that's based I believe, on the mistakes that we've seen and the way we're trying to change social media and the way we're trying to look at how we're also available in the dysregulation and the emotional state of the kids and the CDC report that came out last month about how terrible of a state mental health is for teens and adults. But just the fact that these people who could make money Enough of this are saying just today, we need to pause because now everyone's trying to get these chat bots out in AI. And they're saying, we need to wait, and we need to get more regulation. So no, I don't think and, uh, gosh, willing, I hope it's not too late. This is why I do what I do. As media psychologists, this is what we do. We, you know, explore and inform and educate and study, there's a lot of research that's happening now. But you have to remember this is very nascent, we are one season when it's just starting. So if you knew that there was, you know, in your garden, Marco, some of your growing flowers and everything, you've been growing the same flowers, but suddenly you start to see some mushrooms and they seem poisonous, and they're choking the weeds, should you just let your garden just be overtaken? No, you want to find out what these things are, how they work, and how to manage them. And maybe they're not poisonous, but they seem to be choking your flowers. So you know, you're not just going to walk away.
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 41:01
You know, here's a thought that I'm having maybe it's a little bit too optimistic. But you know, it's related to and taking the analogy just a little step further with the whole, you know, technology immigrants. When I think of immigrants, like digital immigrants, when I when I think about how when immigrants come with the first generation is right, we reject the past, but then the following generation is more in balance. And so I'm thinking about, I wonder, you know, you talk about that younger generation that's born with it, and they're going to an extreme, but once they're adolescents that are young adults, I wonder what that next generation is going to do. Because perhaps they will then be more imbalance, you know, if we, again, if we think about it using that analogy, because that's what we've seen, when we study people who are immigrants, we see what happens with the first generation. And then the second generation, the first generation rejects their their parents language, they reject the customs. And they become, you know, but in America, they become just American to the extreme, but then that following generation will be able to blend it and they want to go back to their roots. So it'll be interesting to see what happens digitally. If that's the case, because I'm optimistic. I'm hoping that maybe you know, what you said today is happening, perhaps that next generation will also have had the experience, and they will reject some of the things
Dr. Don Grant42:26
they already are. We're seeing some of that, and I am an optimist, too. Obviously, I do this every day. And I'm really passionate for this. But I'm going to tell you something I tell the digital immigrant, I say, and I talk a lot about different themes, things like absent presence, and I'm doing a research study, right now exploring the possible correlation of between parents and caregivers being on their devices, on Attachment styles. And I'm proposing and my hypothesis is that we're seeing a new form of emergent insecure attachment disorder that could be avoided. That is completely device driven, meaning the caregiver or parent is an absent presence with their kid. So we're learning but I'm going to suggest to you when I tell to the digital immigrants, I try to teach them how to be in present presence. I try to teach them tips and strategies. However, I tell that you might want to pay attention, because I believe, optimistically, Dr. Susan, that we are the digital immigrants of this new technology and devices. Our kids are the first generations of digital natives. Now they're like, watch this carefully. There is some pushback, they're starting to reject some things they get it however, what I'm going to propose to you is that what I tell them, they are going to be as they grow up the digital immigrants of virtual reality, augmented reality AI, and whatever comes with that, and their kids are going to be the natives. So when they have to really sit, maybe I'm making this up just because it's current today. That Okay, so I just got some sort of hologram from your online teacher, who is a robot that you used some AI to write your paper. Please jetpack home from wherever you are, so that we can discuss this with your Father who is in a virtual space somewhere in another country.
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 44:42
I hear the music of the Jetsons in the back room, another
Marco Ciappelli44:44
planet? Yeah.
Dr. Don Grant44:47
I say everything that you've ever seen in a movie that has ever been imagined. It's just a matter of time when I do presentations. I used to do this, I would say because I would see the heads in the audience in real life when I do shows a little presentation as me, and I would say the audience, okay, everything that you've seen in a movie, everything, it's just a matter of time. And if you don't believe me, anyone back here and back in the day anyone remember Dick Tracy? Because I would simply wouldn't No, no, no. Dick Tracy. Yeah, yeah. Okay, what did he talk into? Here his watch, can everyone that I watch, please raise your hand. And I use that very simple example. But everything that can be imagined, it's just a matter of time when that's why I worry about the CO valency of our relational bonds. Again, I believe that communication, we're not going to stop this. So we need to look at it, we need to be careful, we need to stand up, like Marco said, against the creators and the people who are just only interested in leveraging our mental health and our relationships for money. That's nothing new. I mean, if you look at how workers have been subjugated, and even their health has been compromised, and the bosses didn't care, because we're all just cannon fodder, right? So it's the same thing here. But I think that people need to stand up. We and this is a lofty goal. Boy, would this be wonderful. I used to believe back when I first heard about this thing called the internet, that it was going to be this amazing thing that would bring the world together, we would understand more about each other, we would have prejudices because we'd see. Instead, it turned to one big commerce and one big marketplace, and one big money thing. But my if I could wave the digital virtual magic wand. I would love that we get together globally, and create rules, regulations and agreement about digital spaces, regulations, protecting the kids and have it be an international decision. I don't expect that will happen. But boy, would that be the thing. The one thing that brings us all together movies, music, we know these transcend all cultures, races, classes, education, we all we can go anywhere in the world and reference a movie or a song, but the internet does as well. And once we become the Internet of Things, yeah, yes. And everything is connected. Boy, would that be just what a wonderful end, or beginning to this story of the internet actually was the thing that brought together some sort of world agreement. And I'm going to point out this, we have a government right now. That is absolutely divided. We all know this. They will fight if one says the sky is blue, the other will say no, it's upside down. They won't even say it's paid. However, I want to point out this topic, especially about protecting teens and adolescents in the digital spaces. This is the only issue that is bipartisan, that crosses the aisle, that even people in politics on either side who really are separately, you know, vehemently against each other. This is the one thing teen mental health and regulations. I think we can leverage that. And so my goal, gosh, imagine if the whole world could get together and talk about how to really harvest manage, keep people safe. What are the regulations, rules, stipulations requirements, free speech? Fine. But boy, would that be since the internet is the one thing with along with music and movies that really
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 48:24
bring people together? Yeah, you know, Dr. Don grant, this has been amazing. There are so many more things I wish we had more time to cover. But I definitely want to invite you back especially I mean, there's so many things we can continue to talk about. But the research that you just kind of threw out there, really of interest. So really come back and discuss that. Because the whole notion of that is just really interesting.
Dr. Don Grant48:48
I'll leave your listeners with this, I really, we just finished where we're at, when the data collection state, we created the assessment tool. But what I want to just put out, there's certain things I want your listeners, especially with their parents, don't be afraid. You should know what kind of social sites and what kind of games your kids are playing like you wouldn't give them a set of power tools and say Have at it without understanding it. You wouldn't you don't give that we don't give our kids cars in our car keys without teaching them how to use it in the safety factors. We're very careful with that. So the overwhelm is a digital immigrant that we don't quite understand. And my dad, you say I don't get this new math. Well, it's the same math. But it was his way of like he didn't get it. But I really encourage your listeners a couple of things to leave them with. Please talk to your kids. Invite them into the conversation. Find out what these things are when it says when you go and buy games for your kids and toys. I don't think that you just give them anything and go to the aisle for 18 and above. You look and you read so please don't be overwhelmed by it. Look, and that's the digit the internet's great for look online, find out about the platforms and invite your kids do not tell them what to do. And I tell them played A digital immigrant dumb digital immigrant card, say, hey, you know, there's all this stuff I'm reading in the news about this, is this real? Are people really getting harmed? Is this a problem, you'll get the invariable teenage eyeroll. And that's karma for the ones you gave your parents. But invite them in. And ask them and keep personalize it if you have to. And it might take a few conversations, find out about online, find out what their friends are doing, find out ask them to teach you, though love to teach you. But also, if there's an aberrant change in your child, that cannot be correlated or explained by a biological, psychological, sociological or academic reason, please investigate it, please. And look, if there's cyber aggression, this site and during the pandemic, it went out of control, please pay attention to your kids. And the last thing I'll say is, if you don't think if you think that maybe I'm being too much, and you say, because I have parents say this. Parents will say, Well, I know what my kids doing. They're like sitting in the house, they're on their device all the time. And kids do communicate, they will talk on the phone, they communicate. And texting can be very dysregulated, as we discussed, but I tell parents, they say no, my kids are fine. And I can see them, they're sitting there as it really, they're on their device, you're sitting there sitting right there. And I say to parents, if your kid said to you, Hey, Mom, you know that whatever, you know, I'm gonna go to the abandoned mines 15 miles outside of town, and I'm gonna go exploring them. And I don't really know these other kids, I kind of just knew know, kind of about them. And we're gonna go, I don't know, when I'm gonna be back. Are you cool with that? Of course, you would say What are you talking about? I'm tell parents, when your kids are on the devices, you don't really know where they are, who they're with what they're doing. They have gone there in the abandoned coal mines outside or abandoned mines outside of town with a bunch of characters that they might not even know. So I tell parents, do not be afraid of these devices, pay attention. And lastly, model the behavior for your kids. I am doing another piece right now. Where I have so many kids who say to me, you know, my parents say that I'm on mine too much. Well, actually, they're worse than me. Now, I'm not allowed to bring mine to the dinner table. But dad can because it's hashtag work or quote, parents be mindful, the kids are watching. And they are saying You're just as bad. And you get upset at social media as much as they do. So have conversations. And the very last thing that I will say is I tell parents, you need to get out of this early conversation you are paying for these devices you are paying for these apps, they are privileges, but whatever your family values are, I tell parents, you should start before you give them. The first device. You don't just give your kid a motorcycle. You start with a tricycle bike with training wheels, make sure they can handle it, blah, blah, blah. But I say you need to have conversations and the expectation, I believe, needs to be what ever way you would ask expect them to behave IRL in real life with others, whatever their values are, however, they should treat people what they should be doing or not doing whatever your expectations are, I believe this should be 100% Perfectly mirrored of your expectations of their behaviors, where they go, what they do, who they play with, and how they behave online. And if someone can tell me and so far, I have not had anyone any pair, be able to tell me if you can tell me why there should be a difference. Now the one codicil is, there's a lot of opportunities online. I call it the MMI. Not certainly for things like addiction, things like gender things. So there are things that it's really great where you necessarily wouldn't feel as comfortable exploring, am I or am I not? Would I or would I not. However, if you're going to do that, please do it with an ally who you trust, do not go into these sites or these places to explore things like gender or addiction or anything alone, let someone who trust know you're doing it, because there's a lot of predators out there. But I do believe that is the one thing. And I do believe that kids should have privacy online, but it's about having conversations. Does that make sense? I tried to give you everything right. And
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 54:33
what was amazing. This has just been so helpful. And I'm sure that some of the listeners and viewers are going to like press pause, rewind and wait. I need to listen to that again. Because one last
Dr. Don Grant54:45
thing I gotta add, go for it. Parents say I don't want to be that parent. Parents want to be their kids friends. They want to be friends with them on social networks. Parents in case you haven't caught on Yeah, they'll let you be friends. Under instinct, you're not friends on their Finster. And they're in DMS, and they're doing things you don't know. But I say to parents look very money. A lot of us we did this when you want the best stroller, where's the best pediatrician? What do you guys think about this teacher, you talk to your kids, parents, your kids, friends, parents, you talk to other parents, I strongly suggest we are fighting a battle, we're going to lose and they're teenagers. And they like if I'm 14 steps behind them on any given day, I am hashtag crushing it. So I really encourage parents, I don't want to be the one all their friends get together with other parents, and especially your kids, friend groups, parents, you ask them what stroller to buy, you ask them what teachers they think are good, you ask them where the best tutors are. Ask them create a cabal of especially if you feel comfortable, have your kids, friends, parents immediate circle, and together come up with what your expectations, rules, regulations, and thoughts are. So your kid is not the only one in the peer group who can use the argument but all my friends and then you become God forbid, the thing we always hate when we find ourselves as adults. It's horrifying. It's I'm getting like chills even thinking about it's being our parents and saying, Well, if all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you? Oh my goodness, please avoid that is the worst thing we could ever do and imagine ourselves doing is channeling our parents, because we know what we thought. But if you can get together other parents or your school, have a school policy, like Marco was saying, school policy, get part of the PTA Get it together, I don't think you're going to have a lot of challenges from parents or administrators saying this school should have a policy, no phones, lock them up. Don't do it alone, get it together, be a part of and participate in this. Okay, I think I got it all out in the last round.
Marco Ciappelli57:05
Well, I'm just I could add so many things. But I'm now going because you brought so many topics, it all makes sense. In my head. There may some rewinding needed. I'm gonna go back to the old Walkman here. I'm not a big fan of vintage. Remember that, you know, like just rewind,
Dr. Don Grant57:25
changed my world that Walkman. That's when I first got to go into absent presence, and especially with my parents, my parents would be talking to me and they would be like, are you listening to me? Like, nope, can't hear my ears right now. But the Walkman was our first way of my of me that was the first time I was able to disappear and absent presence. And my parents, I would just sit there and before that there were headphones and things. But those Walkman sometimes you couldn't see them. So my parents would be talking to me, and they didn't have the big old 70s Here, I would have the little Walkman era things and, and they would be talking to me, and I would just be like
Marco Ciappelli58:02
that, and the transistor radio was the first independence for
Dr. Don Grant58:06
that. You could see the blog, that Walkman you could tuck in your pocket, put the cord up there. I used to do that. And I would have the headphones behind. I got big hair. So I would hide it and I would just be able to zone out. And you know, we did it. And our teachers didn't know.
Marco Ciappelli58:22
Sorry. No, no, I could talk about the gang comparison between you know, vintage tech. That wasn't vintage for me when I was a kid but the only said I was gonna say I think that our audience, Susan will have a lot to think about. Absolutely. We have
Dr. Don Grant58:42
to live in this world and not see the concerns that are everywhere. Yeah, absolutely. And the kids are overexposed and underdeveloped the world.
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 58:51
Yeah. And I want to just underscore something about parents being aware of their own behavior. Kids do as parents do not as parents say, they do not do as parents say you can talk to your child till you're blue in the face. They're not they're not going to hear what they're going to follow is what you do modern a
Dr. Don Grant59:14
here's Susan as one.
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 59:20
Charlie Brown teacher, and I get this all the time in my work with parents, but I talked to my kids, yes, but what are you doing? They are going to model you and if you want them to do what you're doing, keep doing it. If you don't want them to model what you're doing, then you got to change your own behavior. And I really want to I mean, there's so many points I can underscore but this has been really it's priceless. The information that you brought, and the the tips and the issues that you really talked about is phenomenal. Thank you so much. And I know we're gonna get a lot of feedback from allies. Thank you.
Dr. Don Grant59:54
I can't tell you how grateful I am not just to you but anyone listening or watching this. Like I said But back then in 2008, when I first started looking at this, and I was really worried that nobody would care, we need to care.
Dr. Susan Birne-Stone 1:00:08
Yeah. And we do. And so I really want to thank you and definitely invite you back. Because there's so many other things that we think we can thank
Dr. Don Grant1:00:15
you, Marco. Thank you, Dr. Susan. Thank you, audience. Thank you, viewers and appreciate
Marco Ciappelli1:00:21
ya and everybody, check on the links on the notes and share, subscribe and be part of the conversation. So thank you very much. This was the perspective podcast on ITSPmagazine. Thank you.
voiceover1:00:40
We hope you enjoyed this episode of the perspectives podcast with Dr. Susan and Marco, part of the ITSPmagazine Podcast Network. If you learned something new and this conversation made you think, then add this show to your favorite podcast player. Subscribe to the ITSPmagazine YouTube channel, and share the ITSPmagazine podcast network with your friends, family and colleagues. If you represent a company and wish to connect your brand to our conversations, and our audience, visit itspmagazine.com to learn how to sponsor one or more of our podcast channels. We hope you will come back for more stories and follow us on our journey