A TechCrunch report says Anthropic's usage policy now includes a new prohibition against prolonged verbal abuse of its AI model, and Sean Martin and Marco Ciappelli ask what that means for the way people talk to the tools they use every day. Sean says AI is a shovel that deserves no good morning, while Marco asks where the line sits between a tool, a brainstorming partner, and something people start to treat like a person.
⬥EPISODE NOTES⬥
A TechCrunch report on Anthropic's usage policy gives Marco Ciappelli a question to put on the table: do you say good morning to your AI, and does it matter if you do not? The policy bans model abuse and election interference, and it adds a new prohibition against prolonged verbal abuse of the model. For Sean Martin and Marco Ciappelli, the news pulls toward a bigger question: what do people think they are talking to?
Sean Martin keeps his answer simple. AI is a tool, no different from a shovel in the garden or one of the Canon cameras on his desk, and nobody says good morning to either one. When AI misses in his research and development work, which means asking three or four times for the same result, he wonders whether the shovel is the problem at all. Maybe the one holding it is the one who needs to change.
Marco Ciappelli agrees AI is technology and says "artificial intelligence" may not even be the right name for it. Yet his behavior shifts with the task. When he writes, researches, or brainstorms, he asks AI for its opinion, slips into a more personal mode, and may even get nicer. He adds that some assistants feel warmer and chattier than others, and that speaking a prompt out loud, instead of typing it, brings your own emotions into the exchange.
The harder questions stay open. Where does frustration end and abuse begin? Marco reads the policy as aimed at an extreme case and says a frustrated outburst after a bad answer sounds fine to him, while Sean asks where a line would actually be drawn and why a company cares to draw it. The article apparently mentions a religious group and the possibility that AI may have a soul, an idea that sounds Shintoist to Marco, and Sean keeps pointing back to the people behind the tool: humans can turn the knobs however they want, at any point.
Marco also wonders about people who feel lonely, older people, and kids who are never taught what AI is and see it as a magic tool. How do they treat it? Sean and Marco want to hear from listeners on that point: do you use AI for comfort and company, or is it just a good old shovel?
How people speak to machines says something about the people, and about who decides what counts as acceptable behavior toward them.
⬥HOSTS⬥
Sean Martin, CISSP | Co-Founder, ITSPmagazine & Studio C60 | Host, Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast & Music Evolves Podcast | https://www.seanmartin.com/
Marco Ciappelli | Co-Founder, ITSPmagazine & Studio C60 | Host, An Analog Brain In A Digital Age Podcast | https://www.marcociappelli.com/
⬥RESOURCES⬥
The Future of Cybersecurity Newsletter | https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/7108625890296614912/
An Analog Brain In A Digital Age Newsletter | https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/7079849705156870144/
Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast | https://www.seanmartin.com/redefining-cybersecurity-podcast
An Analog Brain In A Digital Age Podcast | https://redefiningsocietyandtechnologypodcast.com
ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/
⬥KEYWORDS⬥
sean martin, marco ciappelli, anthropic, usage policy, abusing ai, verbal abuse of ai, ai etiquette, ai as a tool, anthropomorphizing ai, does ai have a soul, voice prompting, human and ai relationship, technology and society, itspmagazine
Should You Say Good Morning to Your AI? | A Conversation with Sean Martin and Marco Ciappelli
[00:00:00] Sean Martin: I look at AI as a tool. I don't look at it as a human. And so, like I was saying, when I wanna go and do something in the garden, I just
[00:00:15] Sean Martin: pick up a shovel and start digging. I don't say, "Good morning, shovel."
[00:00:19] Marco Ciappelli: Did you just...
[00:00:20] Sean Martin: Good morning.
[00:00:21] Marco Ciappelli: AI a shovel?
[00:00:22] Sean Martin: Morning, shovel.
[00:00:24] Marco Ciappelli: You're going back to the good, good old days of technology, when technology was a shovel, which still is, by the way.
[00:00:36] Sean Martin: Get to work. I want a new API that will connect engine A to engine B. Go.
[00:00:46] Marco Ciappelli: Well, can you say please? Or sorry? Or...
[00:00:52] Sean Martin: I don't have to say good... I don't even have to say good morning.
[00:00:56] Marco Ciappelli: Well, at least say good morning to me,
[00:00:58] Sean Martin: Right.
[00:00:59] Marco Ciappelli: Afternoon,
[00:00:59] Sean Martin: Good morning, afternoon, good evening.
[00:01:02] Marco Ciappelli: How are you doing?
[00:01:03] Sean Martin: How you doing?
[00:01:04] Marco Ciappelli: So [we] are very famous for making things too long every time.
[00:01:10] Sean Martin: Too long, huh? Yeah.
[00:01:11] Marco Ciappelli: The new rule is that we go back on camera together, and first thing, we are influencers now. We're holding our phone like... I mean, our microphones like this, and...
[00:01:20] Sean Martin: How it works now.
[00:01:21] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, it's kinda cool. It's like holding a microphone. But so here's the news.
[00:01:28] Marco Ciappelli: TechCrunch today talks about Anthropic, that [updated its]
[00:01:32] Sean Martin: Yeah.
[00:01:33] Marco Ciappelli: usage policy to ban model abuse and election interference. In particular, a new prohibition against prolonged verbal abuse of the model, which is now expressly forbidden.
[00:01:47] Sean Martin: Look at that.
[00:01:47] Marco Ciappelli: The joke at the beginning was, did you say please? And I am just curious, everybody has probably his own kind of relationship
[00:01:56] Sean Martin: Sure.
[00:01:57] Marco Ciappelli: with their AI. I [00:02:00] have multiple, but there is one that is just my favorite, which is Claude. And how do you feel about that? Do you say good morning? "Welcome back, Marco." What do you say before you...
[00:02:13] Sean Martin: I sometimes see "good morning," sometimes I see "hello, late..." what is it, "night owl," 'cause I'm up quite late working.
[00:02:25] Marco Ciappelli: Or "Marco is back."
[00:02:27] Sean Martin: That's right. To be honest, I usually ignore that, and in return,
[00:02:35] Marco Ciappelli: What an asshole.
[00:02:36] Sean Martin: I usually don't say anything either. I was telling you earlier, I look at AI as a tool. I don't look at it as a human. And so, like I was saying, when I wanna go and do something in the garden, I just
[00:02:58] Sean Martin: pick up a shovel and start digging. [00:03:00] I don't say, "Good morning, shovel."
[00:03:02] Marco Ciappelli: Did you just...
[00:03:03] Sean Martin: Good morning.
[00:03:04] Marco Ciappelli: AI a shovel?
[00:03:05] Sean Martin: Morning, shovel.
[00:03:07] Marco Ciappelli: You're going back to the good, good old days of technology, when technology was a shovel, which still is, by the way.
[00:03:14] Sean Martin: I don't caress... I do love my cameras. I have many Canon cameras sitting right here. I don't caress them and say, "Good morning, camera."
[00:03:23] Marco Ciappelli: I...
[00:03:23] Sean Martin: I don't know.
[00:03:24] Marco Ciappelli: Here's the thing. As you know, when I was in Tokyo the other day, I wrote... I did a little piece reflecting on that it's important to understand that AI is technology, and we need to treat technology as technology while we tend to humanize everything. So in a way, it's kind of connected. We anthropomorphize the shape of the robots.
[00:03:45] Sean Martin: Yeah.
[00:03:46] Marco Ciappelli: So I see your angle. For me, it's a little bit different. Like, I know that AI is AI, and it pisses me off sometimes. So I wouldn't say I abuse it, but I don't know where they're [00:04:00] gonna draw a line with this prohibition. But I was actually seeing that it's a very extreme case. So I guess if you don't say good morning, it's fine. I guess if you say, "This is not what I wanted, you piece of s... something," I think is fine. But I...
[00:04:20] Sean Martin: Yeah, where's... That's the question. Where's the line? If there will be a line drawn, where is that line gonna be? I don't know.
[00:04:28] Marco Ciappelli: Well, I think you need to be really abusive. Which, if you tell me, that is humanizing AI, because if it doesn't have a soul, it doesn't have a brain, it...
[00:04:41] Sean Martin: Right?
[00:04:42] Marco Ciappelli: which at this point it doesn't,
[00:04:44] Sean Martin: Oh, curious to know why they care.
[00:04:48] Marco Ciappelli: Nah, there was apparently some religious group involved that were doing research. There was a note here on the article that expressed that [00:05:00] maybe there is the possibility that even AI may have a soul. And so it sounds very Shintoist to me, kind of a Japanese religion, where we give a soul to everything, and it's definitely not part of the Christian religion, I think. But I am curious how everybody else is actually interacting with...
[00:05:25] Sean Martin: Yeah.
[00:05:25] Marco Ciappelli: Besides the shovel, what kind of work do you do with AI? You're not digging holes in the...
[00:05:31] Sean Martin: I was just gonna go there, 'cause I think maybe...
[00:05:34] Marco Ciappelli: The Mac [VERIFY]...
[00:05:34] Sean Martin: Maybe the...
[00:05:35] Marco Ciappelli: Digging...
[00:05:36] Sean Martin: I'll use the word relationship. Maybe the relationship determines the interaction. I don't know.
[00:05:42] Marco Ciappelli: Okay. Maybe the task.
[00:05:44] Sean Martin: The ta...
[00:05:45] Marco Ciappelli: If you're doing... Okay, give me an example.
[00:05:48] Sean Martin: So one example might be I'm researching something, I'm curious, I need its help. I might guide it and ask it a certain way to [00:06:00] help me. As we all know, it doesn't always get things right, and you kinda have to push it left, push it right, to get it to where the response comes back. So that's one, maybe research and things like that. The other's a lot of development, so it's helping me develop. And sometimes I have to ask three or four times for something to be done.
[00:06:30] Marco Ciappelli: Doesn't get...
[00:06:31] Sean Martin: It doesn't get it. And so looking at it as a shovel, it's like, I don't know, maybe I'm just thinking about this now. The shovel's gonna do what the shovel does. Maybe it's the one holding the shovel that needs to change.
[00:06:46] Marco Ciappelli: ...expect as much from a shovel besides making holes, or use it for that particular thing.
[00:06:52] Sean Martin: But there are flat nose shovels, round edge shovels, skinny shovels for...
[00:06:56] Marco Ciappelli: Shovel.
[00:06:57] Sean Martin: I know.
[00:06:58] Marco Ciappelli: You're not gonna ask the [00:07:00] shovel to code something for you.
[00:07:01] Sean Martin: So the other thing I'm looking at is, I know we're already six minutes in, but the other thing I'm thinking about is
[00:07:07] Marco Ciappelli: All right.
[00:07:07] Sean Martin: if I'm misusing the shovel, I can't expect it to do something if I'm not using it right. The shovel's probably not the best example. Maybe a camera. If I don't know the features of a camera... Yeah, it is...
[00:07:19] Marco Ciappelli: It made me laugh.
[00:07:20] Sean Martin: Funny.
[00:07:21] Marco Ciappelli: This guy is...
[00:07:22] Sean Martin: Yeah.
[00:07:22] Marco Ciappelli: ...a shovel with AI. I think the task is important. I use it to write a lot, and the point is I know it's not intelligent. I don't even think artificial intelligence is the right name for it. It can do things, but I don't think it's intelligence. But if I use it to write maybe a philosophical thing, to do research, to write short stories, then I am in a different, more personal mode. And it's a way to talk to myself.
[00:07:53] Sean Martin: Then...
[00:07:55] Marco Ciappelli: So I use it to brainstorm, and if I'm brainstorming [00:08:00] ideas, I ask the opinion. I say, "What do you think about this?" And if I get into that mood, then I'm much more maybe in tune with it as a being, and I may be nicer, but then I remember that, you know, it's what it is. Let's use technology for what it is. But I wonder about people that feel lonely, older people, kids, if they're not taught how to and they perceive it as a magic tool, how do they treat it? So I don't know. Maybe they can let us know. Maybe if people are...
[00:08:37] Marco Ciappelli: ...and have an opinion,
[00:08:38] Sean Martin: So here...
[00:08:38] Marco Ciappelli: Comment.
[00:08:39] Sean Martin: A thought. Do you remember... Was it our very first podcast?
[00:08:43] Marco Ciappelli: Do you remember, 2,500 [VERIFY] ago?
[00:08:46] Sean Martin: Do you remember that?
[00:08:48] Marco Ciappelli: Our first...
[00:08:49] Sean Martin: The very first one. I'm pretty certain it was the one about, yeah, well, not autonomous cars, but cars [00:09:00] mapping. Car and directions and maps. Remember that?
[00:09:03] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. They were, yeah, going through a neighborhood and
[00:09:06] Sean Martin: to determine, well, if you're a high net worth person, you're gonna get the fast track. If you're a bad person or don't have a lot of money, you're gonna get routed through a different neighborhood. And if you're in a neighborhood that doesn't have a lot of money, you're gonna get all the cars. If you're a wealthy neighborhood, you're not gonna get a bunch of Uber traffic. And now they have the ratings in Uber. So I don't know. I just wonder two things. One, [00:09:39] there's data, so can the data be used to do things? Maybe you don't get as nice a Claude experience if you're not nice now. I don't know. But there is a point that I really wanna make. There's still a human behind all this stuff.
[00:09:51] Marco Ciappelli: Uh-huh.
[00:09:52] Sean Martin: Still a human behind all this stuff. So humans can turn the knobs however they want
[00:09:59] Marco Ciappelli: Well, that...
[00:09:59] Sean Martin: at [00:10:00] any point.
[00:10:00] Marco Ciappelli: Did...
[00:10:01] Sean Martin: Exactly. That's it.
[00:10:02] Marco Ciappelli: This thing. I mean, if you really don't humanize it, then what does it matter if you treat it like, you know, whatever,
[00:10:09] Sean Martin: Like I treat you.
[00:10:12] Marco Ciappelli: But now, my wife, she always makes the joke that if [00:10:19] it becomes intelligent and it becomes kinda like a Terminator, then you're gonna regret that you were kind of an asshole to your AI, 'cause they're gonna know and they're gonna come after you.
[00:10:29] Sean Martin: That's right.
[00:10:29] Marco Ciappelli: ...is... I've seen that joke online a few
[00:10:31] Sean Martin: Yeah.
[00:10:32] Marco Ciappelli: But...
[00:10:33] Sean Martin: Do you have...
[00:10:34] Marco Ciappelli: Again...
[00:10:35] Sean Martin: ...relationship where you're an asshole with one and then you're nice to another, and you just hope that the asshole one doesn't become the Terminator? I don't know. Or maybe it does, because everybody's being an asshole.
[00:10:47] Marco Ciappelli: Maybe, maybe. I mean,
[00:10:49] Sean Martin: Right?
[00:10:49] Marco Ciappelli: And certain AIs are a little bit more dry than others, drier in their behavior. ChatGPT, and I think Claude is very... it can [00:11:00] be very warm,
[00:11:00] Sean Martin: Right.
[00:11:01] Marco Ciappelli: very chatty,
[00:11:03] Sean Martin: Very chatty.
[00:11:03] Marco Ciappelli: can feel a little bit more human than others. Like
[00:11:07] Sean Martin: Aiming to please. Yeah.
[00:11:09] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, Gemini, I don't get that. It's a little bit more dry. I use
[00:11:14] Sean Martin: Like a shovel.
[00:11:15] Marco Ciappelli: ...done, like... But when you start talking to it... Now I wanna go there. Sorry. Do you ever give the prompt by talking?
[00:11:25] Sean Martin: I don't voice prompt.
[00:11:27] Marco Ciappelli: Never done it? Not even when you're walking the dogs? Well, I've done it,
[00:11:31] Sean Martin: Well,
[00:11:32] Marco Ciappelli: it feels a
[00:11:33] Sean Martin: not,
[00:11:33] Marco Ciappelli: different.
[00:11:34] Sean Martin: I...
[00:11:35] Marco Ciappelli: Humanity cross right there [VERIFY].
[00:11:37] Sean Martin: Okay. Yeah, I don't... I haven't done... I voice text, or voice
[00:11:44] Marco Ciappelli: Oh, I see.
[00:11:45] Sean Martin: You know what I mean? The Siri to the field, but then the prompt is still text, so I don't actually talk.
[00:11:51] Marco Ciappelli: Now that I think about it, it changes a lot when you're actually talking, 'cause your own [00:12:00] emotions... and I think you just think that you're talking to another person. You need to really realize it's different than just typing in the thing.
[00:12:09] Sean Martin: Yeah.
[00:12:10] Marco Ciappelli: That's another thing I like to know from people, like how do you use it, and how do you feel about it? And do you use it for comfort and company? I'm sure many people use it for that, or if it's just a good old shovel.
[00:12:25] Sean Martin: Digging stuff and digging stuff up. Bury...
[00:12:27] Marco Ciappelli: I'm gonna...
[00:12:28] Sean Martin: May...
[00:12:28] Marco Ciappelli: The goodbye...
[00:12:29] Sean Martin: Maybe burying stuff. So that's a good... There we go. Let's bury this one.
[00:12:33] Marco Ciappelli: All right, you're going there. Okay.
[00:12:36] Sean Martin: We'll bury this one. I'm curious to hear what people think.
[00:12:40] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, [00:12:46] let us know what you think, and back the next time that we either read something interesting or we just wanna pass minutes together, Sean and I, as we used to do, and now we're doing more things on our own. But hey, this is fun. Good to...
[00:12:55] Sean Martin: It is good.
[00:12:56] Marco Ciappelli: ...a shovel.
[00:12:56] Sean Martin: I'm gonna go get a shovel. I'm gonna shovel some food into my [00:13:00] mouth.
[00:13:00] Marco Ciappelli: There you go. With a shovel,
[00:13:02] Sean Martin: How about the shovel?
[00:13:03] Marco Ciappelli: All right.
[00:13:04] Sean Martin: Bye everyone.
[00:13:05] Marco Ciappelli: Bye-bye. Stay tuned.