In this episode, we'll take a broad tour of the topic of urbanization, exploring the genesis of contemporary cities, where we are now, and where we are headed.
In this episode, we'll take a broad tour of the topic of urbanization, exploring the genesis of contemporary cities, where we are now, and where we are headed.
In particular, by exploring the issues of today, we can identify many of the major challenges and opportunities. We'll approach these areas through the lens of areas such as economics, social, and technology.
Hosts
Dr. Jonathan Reichental | https://www.itspmagazine.com/the-other-society-hosts-and-panelists/dr-jonathan-reichental
Marco Ciappelli | https://www.itspmagazine.com/the-other-society-hosts-and-panelists/marco-ciappelli
Sean Martin | https://www.itspmagazine.com/the-other-society-hosts-and-panelists/sean-martin
Panelists
Kris R. Villanueva-Libunao | https://www.itspmagazine.com/the-other-society-hosts-and-panelists/kris-r-villanueva-libunao
Jamie Cudden | https://www.itspmagazine.com/the-other-society-hosts-and-panelists/jamie-cudden
Zoe Eather | https://www.itspmagazine.com/the-other-society-hosts-and-panelists/zoe-eather
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Twitter | https://itsp.ac/smart-cities-ep1-twitter-live
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Intro [Voice Over] 0:28
Welcome to the intersection of technology, cybersecurity, and society. Welcome to ITSPmagazine. You're about to experience the other society; prepare yourself for an independent, unscripted and unedited conversation about the past, present, and future of the relationship between technology and humanity. Our goal is to share information and inspire action, so that technology can be utilized to make our world a better place for everyone. The others, society is not just a vision, it is a movement, and you can join it. Knowledge is power. Now, more than ever.
S. Martin 1:17
Look at that, Marco. I mean, here we are. It's the long awaited moment.
M. Ciappelli 1:24
You know what, Sean, I was thinking, like, how am I going to start this? And I thought about, you know, when you're a kid, and you're like, Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Because we've been talking about this other society, at least the two of us as an idea for a very long time as a detachment, a new venture of ITSPmagazine, and we're finally… finally here, and I'm really excited. And Sean , what is The Other Society?
Sean M. 1:51
I think you'll probably say it much more eloquently than me. But the idea is that we as humans, are creating the technology that are enabling us to live in a world that is digital. And we have an opportunity to actually define that technology in a way that creates the society that we want to live in. And we all have our own different view for what that is, and how the technology will help us achieve our own personal goals and our societal goals. And that's the point is, we all have a voice here, and this is our chance to share that. But we have to understand what it means for us too, and that's the purpose of these conversations.
M. Ciappelli 2:31
And you just pass the test like that. Oh, yeah, very good. Very good. I'm proud of you, and, you know, I deliver the message to you, and I hope we're going to deliver to everybody else. Because our goal with this conversation is to make people think, and believe that we can actually reach together that other society that may mean different things for different people. But we'll find out as we travel together. And of course, Sean, it would be very boring if it was just the two of us. And for people that are watching here - and the ones that are listening to the podcast will figure out as we go - we have a co host, and we have three panelists. It’s exciting. I can't wait, Sean, I'll let you introduce the co-host.
S. Martin 3:17
Yeah, and very quickly, the model for this program is a series of conversations looking at the overview of a topic. And then we dive deep into technology. And then we pop back out and look at what's the real impact to society. And I think we have 50 topics published on deck at the moment, with 50 more waiting in the wings. Smart Cities seemed the perfect one to lead this off with and I think there's no better co hosts than in Dr. Jonathan Reichental, to help us lead us through what is a smart city? How does technology play a role? And what does that gonna mean to our society? This is episode one, the introduction. Jonathan, thanks so much for joining us for this journey. And please take it from here.
J. Reichental 4:06
Great. Well, thank you, Sean and thank you, Marco, what a pleasure to be here with you. And how thrilling to be on the first episode of this new show you have which is going to run for some time and cover so many different things. And I think you're exactly right. The fact that you chose Smart Cities is spot on, because, you know, I'm passionate about this topic. And our guests are too because we believe our future is being shaped by cities in a very, very important way. So if you want to understand the future of humanity, and where we're headed, you got to understand cities. So I'm so thrilled that this is the first episode. Today we are going to be talking about urbanization in general, you know the background to our cities, and where we're at what's going on right now. In episode two, we'll talk about the technologies. And then in the final episode, we'll sort of look to the future with some philosophers, which is going to be fascinating. So, I'm going to introduce some brilliant people now. And I'm so thrilled because I consider them all friends, and some of the brightest minds in this space. So we're lucky to have them. I'll start, just to say hi to Zoe. hi, Zoe in Australia. Hi. There. So we've got a great connection to Australia. That's beautiful. So welcome. lovely to have you. We have Chris on. By the way, Zoe is the CEO at an organization that she's created called My Smart Community. Wow, I almost forgot to share that bit. So we'll move to Kris. Kris is with us. She is the executive director at Smart City, which is kind of cool because it's SmartCT. So good stuff on that. Hi, Kris.
K. R. Villanueva-Libunao 5:57
Hello, Jonathan. Hi, Sean, Marco, and congratulations for the first episode of The Other Society.
M. Ciappelli 6:05
Thank you.
J. Reichental 6:05
It's great to have you, Kris. And Kris is really quite close to where I am. I'm over here in San Francisco. She's just across the bridge. You know, over east of where I am here in California. Also Kris has an incredible following in the Philippines and does some very important work out in the Philippines. So I know that a lot of your fans, Chris are joining us either now or in the in the playback. So hello to them. And finally we have Jamie Cudden from Dublin, Ireland. Jamie is the smart city lead at Dublin City Council. Hi, Jamie.
J. Cudden 6:46
Hey, Jonathan. Hey, guys. Great to be here on the first episode.
J. Reichental 6:51
Well, I'm thrilled that you're on, it's good to see you. I just saw him just for Jamie and Dublin just a few months ago, where we had a really good, really great conversation and a great meal in a great restaurant. So that was lovely. And it's nighttime for you. And so thanks for joining us and Zoe in Australia. What time is it?
Z. Eather 7:10
It's a very reasonable hour. 8am.
J. Reichental 7:13
Okay, okay, very nice. Let's jump right in. So you, you all know that I'm passionate about this space, about cities. We are now in what I consider to be a century of cities, the 21st century. You know, our humanity is now an urban species. Right? The majority of humans are living in cities and throughout this century, most people born will be born into cities, and live all their lives in cities. So pretty incredible. As we see accelerated urbanization. So I will start with Zoe. And my question for you is, from your perspective, and I want to definitely hear your opinions. You know, what's driving this accelerated growth of urbanization? In your research and experiences?
Z. Eather 8:03
Yeah, great question. And thanks, Jonathan. And yeah, thanks for having me on the show, I'm really excited to be here. I think there's this draw towards people. And, you know, thinking about what's happened in the last couple of years, we are seeing shifts and changes, though, to not necessarily the biggest cities in the world, but also people moving to kind of smaller regional centers. And I know we use the word urbanization, we use the word cities, a lot of my work has been in actually what draws people together in these regional communities, and what actually creates a community as well. And so lots of people are going to be living in cities, as you said in the future. Because we can access services, we can access the internet, we can access all these types of things. But the work that I do is really around, well, if we don't live in the center of the big city, what else do we need to do to make sure that people have access. So those regional centers, those hubs, making better use of resources in those in those regional areas as well in rural areas, and then really thinking about, even if I don't live in the center of a big city, how I need to be able to access the internet. So we want to be able to make sure that people can still access, and then I can have the life that I need, that I want to have. And maybe I travel every you know, occasionally, or maybe I work from home, maybe I can do a couple of things. Because we know that people are going to be doing a whole range of different things where we're not going to necessarily move to an office in the big city. work eight to five, we might do that for a bit, but we might shift and change and do other things as well. So I think in the future, obviously people are moving to cities, but I think it's going to be different to what we're experiencing now.
J. Reichental 9:48
Yeah, good point. And sort of to follow up on that with Kris. Do you think with more people now working from home, and and having more flexible work arrangements, do you think it changed the pattern of urbanization? What are your thoughts on that?
K. R. Villanueva-Libunao 10:04
Yeah, I was like, that's a really good question. And I like what Zoe raised earlier about, how does the city, the urban center really affect the ones in the in the in the border areas? I would like to go back to the definition of CTE. Right? So I was like, I was just talking to Tim of UNESCO ICP, and he was like, arguing that, you know, the using the term city in smart city is kinda like, negative. Why? Because he's going back to the history of cities, where in the etymology and the history of earlier cities are really formed to abused and overused the communities around it. So most of the times the urban areas, the city itself before, were abusing the agricultural areas, the undeveloped and underdeveloped areas, but I like what Zoe pointed out that, at least for me, cities should be seen as a community itself, it's like a civilization, it is a civilization. It's not a rural and urban dichotomy, especially now that you mentioned that the geography seems to matter less, because of the digital technologies. So cities should equate to communities which constitute, you know, openness, collaboration. But, going back to your question: does the digital transformation affects, you know, the cities formation, the rural formation itself? We would think that if, for example, I'm being paid the same, and I can work anywhere, right? So why should I just live in the city, go to the province, instead, where I can just relax, there are a bunch of trees, the cost of living is cheaper, if I'm paid the same, right? But look, so logically, it will lead like an sort of an exodus, almost an exodus from cities to the rural areas where there's no pollution, there's no traffic, and there's lower cost of living. But the thing is: in my research, there is a 2021 study, I think in UK, where they found quite the opposite. Wherein the internet, and the ICT’s, have not really pushed the people out of the big cities, but rather attracted more people towards them, at least for now. Right? So there's a problem or probably an opportunity or a challenge there itself. It shows that we are maybe creating more inequality? Wherein, you know, the digital transformation, is it really focused on cities, or shall we spill over the digital transformation in… in various areas? So…
J. Reichental 13:01
Very nice. And I loved your point about cities versus communities. I, in fact, you know, Zoe's being a champion around using the term community rather than cities. And she's really influenced my thinking on that. So thank you for raising that. So this is this is for Jamie, I want to build on this even further. So we're talking about accelerating urbanization. We've been urbanizing, you know, throughout the industrial revolutions for about 300 years, but it's accelerating. And so the question is, you know, again, from your perspective, you are a leader, they're in a, in a growing popular city, there in Dublin, Ireland, you know, what's the impact of accelerating innovation, not only to the city itself, as more and more people move in, but to the rural areas as people move out? What are your thoughts on that?
J. Cudden 13:46
Yeah, I mean, I'm really interested. I mean, we always started off years back with smart cities as an exclusive club. Just to pick up on that, where I think the whole conversation is really going towards communities, towns, villages. And I think maybe Jonathan, coming back to your point about, you know, size, you know, size of cities, the bigger they are sometimes the more complicated… Well, definitely the more complicated they are, and the bureaucracy and the silos. I mean, I sometimes think Dublin is a kind of a, just the perfect size. Of course, I'd say that, but, you know, it's not too big, not too small. And we've also created like these districts where we can accelerate innovation. So we're not trying to tackle everything in one big go. But I think it's the smaller towns and villages, and communities, they can actually really take the opportunity now more than anyone because you have less bureaucracy, you have less challenges in terms of trying to change culture. And if you get the right people with the right mindset, you can just drive for change at really fast. So, so I think while cities offer massive opportunities, you know, in terms of, you know, innovation ecosystems, and, you know, you know that the hobos in Dublin, young Docklands is here behind me, you know, that's one of the biggest innovation tech quarters in Europe. And, you know, we're wondering now what is the future of districts like this look? Like, you know, post COVID. And what we've heard, and I think what we've all experienced is that working from home was kind of cool at the start. And then we kind of realized that we needed to engage with people on a face to face basis, the idea of ideation brainstorm, it's just not the same, you know, that, you know, water cooler moment, that coffee chat. And I'm, we're kind of hearing that from the tech companies, you know, they're trying to reinvent, you know, maybe, you know, there's some stuff you can do work remotely, but there's other stuff that just can't happen remotely. And innovation requires people ideas, exchange of ideas. So I think there's, you know, there's a really interesting future for cities and innovation districts, and also an opportunity, as you say, Jonathan, for, you know, areas outside of cities, you know, rural areas, but underpinned by that, you know, and in Ireland and other countries, it's about connectivity. You know, if you can't get high speed connectivity in these areas, you're finished. So having supportive government policies, and, you know, encouraging the right investment in the right places. And we've been quite fortunate that, you know, COVID came at a time that we've had connectivity, or maybe it could be better, but making good COVID, like, 10, 15, or 20 years ago, oh, my goodness. Without these, you know, collaboration tools. Without Netflix, what would we have done? You know?
M. Ciappelli 16:10
Absolutely. Yeah, you know, I love this angle of looking at it as a community because, you know, I'm like Jamie, I come from Europe… from Florence, Italy. So, you know, I'm used to think about old cities when I think about going to the cities, that center. But it's always that thought of many people that back in the 60s and the 70s, also leaving the outskirts of the city where you have your resources, and you only had to go to the city when you needed to. So this community and the technology, Jonathan, maybe I will love your opinion on that. Could it allow to have a decentralized vision of a city where instead of being just the city as your urbanistic development, it's a city even if it's just connected via digital mean, to that it's kind of fascinating my head right now.
J. Reichental 17:09
Yeah, like that. In fact, I think, I think kris has a perspective on that, right?
K. R. Villanueva-Libunao 17:13
I yeah, I want to… I like what Jamie mentioned, as well, and what Marco is going like pointing out in terms of like smaller cities, if in like, in my experience in Southeast Asia, there's a study as well, the middle weight cities, not only the urbanization is rising, but economic development is rising. So that's an opportunity for businesses as well. So the middle… when we, when we think of Southeast Asia, we always think about the mega cities, the Jakarta, like Manila, Bangkok, but 60%, or even higher, is of the economic development is in middle weight cities, which is the population is 500,000 to 5 million. So that's a really good opportunity. The economic development is booming in this part in the city. And I agree with Jamie, when we're, he pointed out that this particular cities are more nimble, they're more flexible in terms of like dealing with, with the government especially. And I also like what Marco pointed out in terms of decentralization. You know, decentralization is really, especially in Southeast Asia, it's really in full swing. In the Philippines, just last year, there's a court ruling where really gives even the fiscal autonomy to the cities themselves. So rather than the organizations, rather than the companies forcing through the national government, forcing everything through the national government, you can directly work with the cities themselves and directly engage with our main stakeholders, the city leaders themselves.
J. Reichental 18:47
I love it! Zoe?
Z. Eather 18:49
Adding on to that. And Marco, I really, I love your point around thinking about these kind of digital cities that we have, which is the community, right those we have the local community that we love, we know we've thrived on that during COVID, when we're able to, you know, get out and connect in a safe way. But also we have this global community, right. And we're all sitting here now global community. And it's not one or the other anymore. It's both. And I think that what’s really magical about this time, and that we can have both, and that both are on equal ground. Whereas I felt like digital wasn't on equal ground before. It was something we did that was, you know, kind of behind the scenes or when we had time out of our normal lives, whereas our smart life is now our real life. And it's one and the same. So our digital footprint is just as important as our physical footprint. But going to your point around that ecosystem of connectivity and that being a city. I talked about this in a smart region. And in Australia, don't we have a lot of, you know, really, I guess, communities that are really far away from anything else, are quite small, and we have a whole range of different socio economic statuses in different communities, that type of thing. I mean, the globe, everyone has it around the world. But we know that there's this tyranny of distance in Australia. But we also… I talked a lot about... So you know, we've got, say, one person per… whatever, square meters. And we talked about this region approach, because when we want to, say, implement a new technology that's going to improve the quality of life of people, maybe it's connectivity, maybe it's being able to have more data around weather and that type of thing as well, we really need to think about how we can form that united front when we are, you know, purchasing technology or engaging with our communities. And so that's that region approach is really key, because then you can have this ecosystem of networks that, you know, don't have to be next door to you. But you know, you can reach out to them. And so I think that on a global scale is such an important topic. And I think that's what we're creating here, which is really exciting.
J. Reichental 20:55
Yeah, thanks, Zoe… Sean…
S. Martin 20:56
Yeah, I wanted I wanted to go to Jamie with this, because I often wonder how change is started? Do citizens of this city… as a city or community know they need change? Are they looking to government entities to identify where inefficiencies lie and where positive change can come from? I know, in I know near the Docklands, there's a project for like some water park, that was going to be multi purpose. And that was approved and now retracted. So how do projects come to bear? And are they citizen driven, government driven, lobbyists driven, tech driven? Where and how does it all come about?
J. Cudden 21:45
Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I think there's a couple of different levels there. I mean, I'm just thinking, from my own perspective, in terms of how we started off about five or six years ago, kind of kicking off a smart city program, just myself, and it was sponsored by our chief executive, who's a city manager of Dublin City, I think change, you know, needs to be driven by strong leaders, you know, you see it in different cities with strong mayors, you know, people with the, I suppose the authority to kind of, I suppose, bypass the naysayers, the negative people, you know, there's, there's always a culture to kind of stick with the status quo. But sometimes you need to step outside of that, and really look at new ideas and new opportunities, I think, also challenges that cities face, you know, over the last, you know, decade, you know, there's been so many different challenges, from congestion, to climate change to you know, I suppose flooding and extreme weather events, we're facing so many different challenges. I mean, COVID is just another one of many pretty significant one, though, and I think what we need to do is, no cities are very traditional, cities have always worked the same way, you know, the governance of our cities hasn't changed for hundreds of years already. But we live in very different times, you know, technology is moving so fast, expectations of citizens is changing at a pace we've never seen before, because of what they're used to, on a daily basis. So we kind of live in and work in these cities that are very traditional, yet society is moving at a different pace, and we can see it with how technology has evolved. And all these companies like Facebook, or Meta, or Google, you know, have taken that opportunity and just gone so fast, so quickly, for no policy has kept up with that. And you see the same and, you know, things that used to be the exclusive remit of governments, like your mobility services, and lots of other areas like scooters, all of a sudden, you're taken over the streets of our cities, absolutely fantastic concept, but, you know, done in the wrong way is a mess. And we see the same in terms of the data that's collected on citizens in cities, you know, opting in, you know, how things are used with our consent without our consent, you know, it's a bit of a free for all out there, I think, while the opportunities are absolutely massive, and that cities have to shape that, and for the benefit of citizens, you know, solving challenges, and it comes back to your point, Jonathan, at the very start, you know, we need a society that is, you know, applying these technologies, these new opportunities in the right way. And I think, you know, the different drivers for that, there are so many challenges, you know, there's so many things we need to address in our cities, but like if not done the right way or shaped for the benefit of citizens or communities where we're going in the wrong direction. So it's kind of you know, good interesting conversation that I am sure we can talk about for the next while.
J. Reichental 24:26
Yeah I know, but I love, I love your answer and your thoughts there, Jamie because you, you filled in a lot of gaps about what the challenges are and how stuff can go well, stuff can be problematic if you don't deal with it. And it is right now a bit of a free for all, there's a lot of moving pieces, as you kind of have characterized. So this question is for Kris. So, you know, we've kind of built a nice background here to the topic and we assume, because we live and breathe this every day that everybody understands what cities are doing and what's going on. On. So perhaps you could start off, Kris with sharing with us at a big level, at a high level, you know, how are some communities responding to this to this accelerated urbanization? What are you seeing in your work?
K. R. Villanueva-Libunao 25:17
Yeah, going back to what Zoe was mentioning earlier, like the smart region, at least, because I'm coming in here, or, like, almost representing the Southeast Asia. So from, I guess, from the last time we talked, there are few… there are a few developments on the country level and the Philippines and different, you know, Malaysia and other Asian countries. But on the regional level, right, going back to what Zoe is mentioning, I see the Southeast Asian, Southeast Asian nation released a smart city framework. So basically a guide, a guidance for the whole region itself. And in the Philippines, there's three master plans that's being developed already by the national government. So it's really in full swing in Southeast Asia. But what I noticed is that there's a lot of work left to do in the local level. And this is, I guess, this is where the opportunity and the challenge lies. Because local governments, especially the series, the municipalities, were really uniquely positioned to play a role in governing and embracing data and embracing technologies, not only because we are more nimble, as Jamie mentioned earlier, that we are more flexible, the series are more flexible than the national government, but because the local governments are directly responsible for the welfare of its community, so they understand the needs of the community, they're the one who really understand what it's like in their community. So those, I really think that operationalizing, the smart city concept, is still a challenge on the ground. On top of that, currently, the focus is on the private and public partnership and the people is being left out, I always say that we need to scratch in terms of smart cities, we need to scratch out in our vocabulary, the term public and private partnerships, because we really need to involve the people here, we need the buying of the people, we need the trust of the people, for them to utilize these technologies and data that we are pushing
J. Reichental 27:33
Such great points I love, I wanted to amplify something you said, you know, here in the United States, we've got, you know, the federal government, we have the state and we've the local, there's some other layers of government in there too. But those are generally the big three. For most people, the federal government isn't that close to them, and they probably don't know who represents them there, how they could even touch that, you know, individually if they have to, at the state level, similar, but you know, what, the local people and representatives are very close to you. In fact, because America, the United States is a country of small communities, you're probably going to bump into your mayor, your city manager in the supermarket, you know, and you know, or make a call and meet with with them for a cup of coffee. So I love that point. It's it's one of the reasons I'm so attracted to cities and smaller communities is that this is where the action happens. Absolutely. And I want to want to go to Zoe and sort of continue this sort of response question. You know, you're there in Australia, and I guess if you're not close to this movement, you're probably not aware that you know, Australia is very, very active. And I say that, you know, scanning the world of Smart City activities… lot of stuff is happening in Australia. Can you maybe talk about handful, you know, very high level, how Australian cities are responding to their urbanization?
Z. Eather 28:59
Yeah, no problem. And I think in Australia, we have these amazing pockets of innovation that are happening. And you know, we've been on this journey for quite a quite a long time. And but, you know, having interviewed a whole bunch of people on the podcast, I see the maturity of the conversation increasing, and that's happening. You're on the podcast, but also in the community and in the real, you know, the real world as well. So in New South Wales, there's there's lots happening, there's a smart accelerator fund now, which is I think, $45 million, which is encouraging partnerships between private sector, place owners so not necessarily just private sector, actually probably more local government, partnering with state government and then getting some of these things off the ground, but to Kris point... We've done a lot of kind of, you know, pilots and trials and I think, I know Jamie's team has talked about this, you know, the death by pilot, but also that you learn so much from pilots and things, so you've really got to be quite strategic about it. But then Okay, so that's great. We did that we did the child in the test. Now, how do we scale this? And how do we operationalize this, and particularly in regional areas, this is really, really key. Because yes, we can do a trial, maybe of, you know, some kind of system. But if it's really successful, and it's great, and we want to high five about it, people then start relying on that. And then if we don't have the skill sets to continue it or to scale it, or actually, it's not sustainable in any, you know, fashion, then we get despondent and our community gets despondent because we can't actually move forward. So I think Australia is now in a phase where we are starting to really embed this stuff in our traditional projects, and what I've been working on, it's a very traditional project. And we did a smart city and digital strategy for a public transport network. And this was kind of one of the first times that this has happened on on that scale, they realized that, okay, well, we don't just want to, you know, add Smart City stuff later on, we want that now. And so we did this, we did a whole bunch of initiatives, we did a whole bunch of engagement. And then we were able to give that to the designers. And then they designed it in from the very beginning so it's not coming along till later, you know, 5-7 years down the track, but they're embedding this stuff in now. And one of the biggest things is it's not necessarily specific technologies that we said that they use, because in seven years, they might be different. But it's the purpose or what problem is it solving, or what and how's it enhancing the experience of the passenger or the community. And so that, to me, really showed that I actually we're, we're moving here, we're really getting along. And it's not all that smart start in this bucket over here and this project over here, or this team over here. We're embedding it now throughout our traditional projects, which is an amazing feeling and an amazing experience moving forward.
J. Reichental 32:03
Lovely, thank you. Thank you for that, Zoe. So I wanted to move back to you, Jamie. And what I wanted to do is shift a little bit the conversation to, you know, engagement, how we can engage different types of stakeholders in building better communities and building a better society. And we interested to know, what works has worked for you, and what have you observed in your work with other partners around Europe and beyond? In terms of bringing lots of different stakeholders into building solutions?
J. Cudden 32:42
Yeah, I think it's a really, really good question. I think traditionally, cities have, you know, had a very, I suppose, traditional approach in terms of engagement, you know, the whole town hall concept, and you'd have to, you know, get to make an effort to actually go to the town hall and, you know, see something, but I think, if anything, the engagement thing has really accelerated with COVID, because it's pushed, you know, cities to figure out, you know, how do we go online with teams, and zoom and all new ways to engage. And, you know, I think that's been a game changer, particularly for what I'm seeing in cities around the world and everything from, you know, new plans for the city, starting to think about, can we put them in 3d models, can we have mechanisms where people can visualize stuff better. So that's been a real, real positive, I think, you know, that there's all sorts of different types of engagement, local, hyper, local engagement, we have a project called beta projects, one of my favorite, where, you know, we try and test and do beta projects at very local level engagement, and we get feedback then, from citizens and communities and project, what they like, what they don't like, and keep it small enough that, you know, can be agile, that's been very successful for us. But other areas I got really excited about, and I get really excited about is citizen signs. And this is something that, you know, I just one thing that amazes me is like the technology that used to be just exclusive to cities, you know, 5, 10, 20 years ago, sensors on air quality on, you know, rainfall on, you know, things that impact communities, to now be able to kind of give these to communities and citizens and put it in your garden, or in your school, and to generate data and ask questions about why is it so noisy here? Why is there so much traffic, you know, outside my house, and we want a load of big European projects engaging like 1000s of citizens, I think about 20,000 citizens in Dublin on everything from bike routes, and potholes to air quality and noise. And it just, it just changes the conversation and puts it back into the city. And the guys in the city can do the traditional guys who you know, used to love just having access to the data themselves, myself, their selves. You know, like, you know, Jon worked, when you worked in a city, you know, there's a whole thing like, we're not going to tell them this. They don't need to know, they'll never understand. I love this idea. Now, this data is like out there, you know, people are asking questions, and pushing back and I think there's going to be so much more of that. And it's going to, I mean, we're having conversations with cities around the world, like trying to understand what the new governance is. Yeah. had a series, take in citizen generated data, and actually make sense of it and engage with citizens and do an act on it, you know, so, so I thought they're kind of a couple of areas. And i see very successful stuff with social media and citizen sentiment, companies exam city doing some cool stuff in the US. So there's all different levels. But I suppose the one thing we have to be figured out is that we don't leave people behind on this journey, not everyone is digitally connected. And, you know, it's something we just, you know, it's moving fast, but we have to be careful as well. So, lots to think about lots of exciting opportunities, and it's, it's going to change so much the next 5-10 years for cities, they need to get ready for it.
J. Reichental 35:37
That's so true. I know, Kris, you want to say something? And I want to ask you a question that I think you can fold into your thoughts on engaging, because I know you have a lot to say about it. I'd be remiss if I didn't share that, you know, Kris, one of your passion areas, is data and open data, you've been talking a lot about open data these last few months, which we could feel good for you. So part of my question for you is, you know, certainly weigh in on what Jamie said about engaging people and solutions. But specifically, if you could mention what you think the role of data is in community engagement.
K. R. Villanueva-Libunao 36:16
I really like what Jaime pointed out in terms of really engaging, you know, the people itself. And I would like to add that I always say that we cannot engage the people, or the public to the things that they don't really understand. So even if we don't, if we talk to them about data about smart cities, if they don't know what it is, it's not really engagement. And what I also want to say is that we all in terms of engagement, we always missed our opportunity in terms of educating the general public itself. So we always focus on the supply of data, as you've mentioned, even even in open data, we focus on supply of open data, supply of technologies on the ground, and supply of talent, supply of solutions. And, but we don't focus on the consumption, and the consumption of this data, the consumption of this technologies, the consumption of this, you know, critical technologies like AI, meaning, there's still a lot of gap in terms of the need for deploy, like ethical deployments, or fair deployments of this products and data for the consumption of everyone. And to this effort, I think, in terms going back to your question and open data, oh, my, the wave right now, really, the previous wave is for, like supplying open data, but no one is really using it. So currently, what I hope will happen is that we focus on educating the public in terms of the importance of this particular open data in terms of using this particular data, we should start talking and talking about how can we really educate the general public about this, like technologies about AI? How can we reach the everyday citizens? On what smart cities about? What are the limits of open data? What are the limits of AI? Right? What are the which, what AI or technology any particular technology cannot do? And understand the values like ethical or the values, like governance issues in AI systems and other systems as well. I think in terms of this, like, we're really in the, in the midst of, there's a lot of supply of already, and I'm drowning with a lot of supply of data and technology, but the public is not really involved at all. And we're not really engaged because we don't really talk to them, and they're not literate, you know, they're literate enough in terms of this technologies and open data.
J. Reichental 39:03
Yeah, you know, you know, we're in a period of great change when there are more questions than answers. And and you've, you've characterized that wel... Sean…
S Martin 39:12
Yeah, and I'll put this to Jamie, and, and maybe Zoe has some thoughts on this. I'm sure she does as well, because in the spirit of data, and algorithms and technology, and we can educate and raise awareness and help people understand what this is, but ultimately, it's the outcome that impacts us directly or not, either, if it's not delivered in a way that it's equitable for everybody. Some people might get left behind. So my, my question is, maybe to you first Zoe and then then Jim, you can touch on the kids part of it for the education. How do we, if you're not if you're just sitting by you, you are affected by it and you take it as it's given to you and you don't have to really say, versus if you're part of it and engaged and contributing data, and helping to define the algorithms and helping to define the desired outcomes, as part of that engagement, you can actually help drive what you really want in your Smart City. So how, how do we move beyond just being a second hand fiddle and taking whatever is given to me and actually being part of, but then then also understanding it too, right? Because you have to understand what's going on?
Z. Eather 40:32
Yeah, it's a great question. And a really pertinent one, too, I guess, in the world that we live in. But what I realized is, you know, I'm an engineer by background, right, and I use data all the time, didn't think about, like, that wasn't super sexy, whereas data is now sexy, smart cities and sexy, smart cities is sexy sustainability, right? We throw the technology in there. But I was like, I need to know more about this data, right? So I started a data, masters of data science. And, you know, for me, I was like, I want to do the really technical stuff. But what I realized was, we make all these decisions behind the code, you know, the algorithm and the algorithms are doing all the things and the staff, but they can only do a certain amount of things, we still need that human touch. And I think your point around outcomes is so important. And not every single person is going to get in and start coding in Python or whatever. But if we can have more diversity behind the code to represent those different experiences, the different life experiences, the different, you know, outcomes that people actually are seeking, and wanting from this, rather than just having a, you know, I'm a tech person, therefore, I code and I look like a certain type of person and that's the, that's, that's the outcomes that I think everybody needs. If we have more diversity behind the code, we can represent that diversity in front of it. So not everybody's going to be involved. But I think if we can get more people involved from different experiences, different backgrounds, and you know, I'm an engineer, so it makes sense, potentially, but I'm a civil engineer. And if you throw data science and civil engineering together, that's still an unusual combination. But we need to see more of these unusual combinations. And I think we will, but it requires investment. And I think, you know, we went our we need more teachers in Australia, for example, at some point in time, so then we invested in, we need more engineers, we invested in it. Now we need more people that know what the data is doing. So data scientists, analysts, etc. So we need to invest in it. And it's not necessarily that they're purely data people. But we want that combination of art, maybe they're an engagement person in data, you know, an engineer and data creative and data, you know, artists and data, like having artists in the technology space is amazing, because they think so differently. So I think it doesn't solve the whole problem. But if we can get more people involved in this space, and there's so many different spaces to be involved in to, I'm not going to be the code. I'm not going to be coding everything I can I can jump in and do stuff. But actually, I want to bring the strategy, or I want to bring the engagement, but I understand that we can do certain things. And then there's people that you know, really want to dive into that. So I think if we get more people involved, I think this leads really nicely on to what Jamie was talking about, or is going to talk about. And I think we can start asking those right questions. Because ultimately, like Jonathan said, we don't have all the answers, but we can get people more people asking questions, we'll get better answers in the future.
J. Cudden 43:32
Yeah, so I mean, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, one thing that I've picked up over the last couple of years in Dublin is that there's all these huge opportunities with data with technology. But if people don't know about them, or understand what they are, we're not going to realize them. And we kind of came up with this idea working with Trinity College, Dublin, one of our local innovation partners to set up this thing called Academy Of The Near Future. And I was like the near future, because it's kind of happening now and we need to teach people about it. And we… it actually is an interesting origin because Zoe, you were talking about, you know, your engineering background. My hypothesis is that, you know, after five or six years working in smart cities, the biggest barrier to change was actually the people working in cities, the engineers, no disrespect to engineers. But they just don't get what the opportunity is. So I had this idea that we do a training program, and we do it for engineers and Local Authority staff to get them upscaled in terms of what the opportunity is. But we actually pivoted on that, because we said if we're doing it for engineers, maybe we could do it for kids as well. Now, this was back to engineers, but it's, it's this, you know, we figured out that actually, if you don't get young, young people behind this and feeling part of it, and excited about it, we've lost, you know, we've all lost the momentum. And we kind of designed a program that we'd have like a three hour workshop with kids across Ireland, and we've taught over 1000 students in disadvantaged schools, targeting female schools as well. You know, and it's been hugely successful. You know, the technology and the energy that sits behind cities and can benefit your communities and towns. And I can tell you one thing, it's an absolute joy to sit on those sessions, it can be challenging at times, but it's so rewarding. And I think we need to do a hell of a lot more on that not just with kids and engineers, but with everyone. Because this technology is playing such a key role in our life. And you know, people need to know what it's doing, how it can benefit them, what to think about the pros and the cons, get those conversation going. And then we can grow and scale much faster. And I think we are doing at the moment.
J. Reichental 45:29
Yes, it's such a great, great point. And, or set of points. And I'm going to have a shameless plug. I'm afraid right now. You know, I've written a best seller on building smart cities, as all of you know. But I've also written two children's book books on building smart cities, including a Bedtime Rhymes book. So…
J. Cudden 45:50
I got… I got one.
J. Reichental 45:52
You did! Look at that.
S. Martin 45:56
For those watching? Here's a nice, nice cameo from the book.
M. Ciappelli 46:01
And we were actually lucky because we heard you rhyme for us on a podcast
S. Martin 46:06
You and Brett.
J. Reichental 46:09
That's so true… Okay, got a question. For each of you. We have been speaking about community engagement quite a lot in this conversation. And we talk about it, and I make this I take this position too often is, you know, what cities do so cities do social media city has to have town halls, you know, cities can create different types of online engagement. Let's flip it around, though, that The Other Society is all about each of us building a better future, right? And it's about each of us. So let's think about what each of us can do to build a better society. So the question I have then is, what can an individual do who's listening or watching right now? What can they do tomorrow to get engaged in their in their communities, and in a different way, maybe I'll start with a Kris on that one.
K. R. Villanueva-Libunao 47:04
I think becoming like, for the general public, being more aware of what is happening in their community, through I don't know, like, through whatever medium that they use, like social media, or probably like, newspaper would be a good start. And second would be to be, I guess, if you have a kid at home, you know, to be more, what they call this… to interact more with them. Because those are the kids are more like tech, you know, tech savvy than us. And to really learn from them as well. I like I always like intergenerational learning, you know, so… so I guess the older people have something to, to impart in terms of, you know, what should and should not be done in the society and the kids can teach something in terms of technologies to the… to the adult as well, I think that's a good start. And another another one would be to be more cautious in terms of their use of, of technology and social media, because I really think that we are in the crucial, you know, crucial, crucial time in terms of our social media and the information that is out there as well.
J. Reichental 48:26
Thank you, Kris. So true, good, good, positive, and a little bit of a warning there at the at the end as well. Good. Zoe, and if you can be a little bit more, be quite succinct in your answer around… what can an individual do to get involved in their… building a better community?
Z. Eather 48:44
Yes, I'll give you a tweetable answer. Look outside and think about the things that you love about your community and get more involved in them. And if there isn't another if there isn't a group of people, like you know, that you've already found online or whatever that, that, that also love that thing, create your own. And because there will be people out there, we have so many different interests. So get out there and think about how we can really connect with the people within our community on a certain topic of interest, which can be whatever your heart desires.
J. Reichental 49:21
Great answer. It's a long tweets, but it's a great answer. Just kidding. Jamie, your thoughts?
J. Cudden 49:27
Yeah, I think the most important thing is get out, you know, get away from the phone and the computer, get out and about and enjoy your community. And I think if there's anything that we've learned from, you know, COVID is how lucky we are in the communities we have and getting out and enjoying your neighborhood. And, you know, I think it's that, to me, that's so important. But also if you are interested in getting more active, there's a lot of data that you can collect. There's a lot of stuff that you can use to influence your counselors influence your city to make change. So you know, a lot a lot of cool projects out there. Collecting air quality, and flooding data is stuff that you can really pull together and start kind of shaping, you know, discussions and decisions in your city. I think people don't realize what's just out there. And I think there's very powerful tools.
J. Reichental 50:13
Yeah, such a great point. Now I've made last question. And again, it's going to be for each of you. And I'm going to ask this to everybody. So the next six or seven guests that we'll have in this series, so everybody will have a chance to answer this question. I'm going to start with you, Jamie, work backwards. And yeah, here we go. Totally your opinion, big picture… Because this is the theme of The Other Societies about building a better world. What do you think what's, and this is tough, because it's one thing. What do you think is the one thing we need to do to build a better society?
J. Cudden 50:51
I think that one thing we do need to do to build a better a better society and get myself a bit of time here is to collaborate more, I think we need to work outside our silos, and we're all in it together. If we work together, we can address challenges our city faces, and I think climate action is the number one challenge that that we need to collaborate really hard to address.
J. Reichental 51:12
Hmm, well, I love that answer? Kris, same question for you. What do you in your opinion, what do we need to do to build a better society?
K. R. Villanueva-Libunao 51:23
Yeah, I love the quote of Audrey Tang of Taiwan, which is radical transparency. So I think radical transparency is needed in order for us to collaborate better, you know, and I will also want to say that technology is easy, but culture is hard. So without the public realizing the value of data, the value of technology, all the digitalization efforts would be, you know, pointless.
J. Reichental 51:49
Nice. So good. Thank you, Kris. And I'm going to give you the last word on this on the question Zoe, what would you do? What in your opinion, what needs to happen to build a better society,
Z. Eather 52:01
We need to have better conversations, more conversations that then lead to actions… the action is the hard part. So thinking about how we can really shift in terms of just talking to action and get the people involved that really need to be there. And there's so many different people need to be there. And actually drive some of this stuff forward.
J. Reichental 52:27
Very nice. Wow, three beautiful answers. Thank you all so much, you know, I'm going to wrap up my comments here I but I have to make a more macro comment, which is a Sean and Marco are very talkative engaging guys. I think they've been sitting back and just enjoying what you guys are saying, because I am surprised that their silence.
S. Martin 52:46
I feel like I'm watching like everybody else.
M. Ciappelli 52:49
I'm just, I'm just learning and chilling. Yeah. I will have a comment at the end. So I will let you finish…
J. Reichental 52:56
No, of course, of course. No, no, I of course I kid. But, again, look, no surprise, three brilliant human beings thinking deeply about topics that really matter. You know, we started a conversation today about acknowledging rapid urbanization all over the world. And both the positives of that, plus the the major challenges and unbalanced is probably quite a lot of challenges. Now, a lot of us here talked about solutions. Technology is playing a big role in those solutions. Everybody mentioned education, love the fact that the answers were a lot about kids and engaging kids or younger people in these important big macro topics, we should never lose, lose sight of that. But overall, more engagement more ways, where cities and communities can engage their populations, and for individuals to be more proactive in the role that they can play, rather than waiting, but they can step up and step forward and make change. Some of the ways we're going to change the world is going to be around good conversations, you know, good collaboration being open. And you're facing then those challenges head on. So the time flew by, I want to thank you, Kris, so much. You're incredible. Thank you, of course. Thanks, Jamie for staying up with us. And being part of this amazing. And Zoe, you were absolutely wonderful. As usual. I can't wait to see you in the Middle East here in a few days. It's going to be great fun doing the things we love to do. We just helping to create a better, more positive world. And with that, I'm going to hand you over to Sean.
S. Martin 54:46
Jonathan, amazing. I'll say work here. You put a lot into this. I have to say bringing such an amazing group of folks together for this episode and the others to follow. I think my main takeaway today is engagement. And I think it may be difficult for some to engage if they don't understand. So I think have that first conversation, ask questions. No, no question is dumb question. Look to… and I think he pointed out nothing as well that the federal government and the state government, you won't feel the impact of that it's our communities will feel the real impact of this. Technology is happening, we have a chance to help shape how that technology works for us. And that requires conversation engagement, like our three amazing panelists described today. Marco any thoughts before I bring it home for us?
M. Ciappelli 55:41
I have to say that I'm really happy about this conversation, because when you envision a new series of conversations called The Other Society, you may think like, am I asking too much, you know, like, putting together all these topics and and have a line to follow. And I have to thank Jonathan, for bringing this group of people together, I cannot wait for the next conversations… because it's confirming that there is a need, and there is a lot of smart people out there that are active in… in changing things, not just taking what comes to us, but use, you know, their knowledge to bring knowledge to other people. And yeah, I think technology can help if we use it correctly, and knowledge… knowledge on how to use it. Sean, I'm gonna leave you the last minute to tease on the next episodes.
S. Martin 56:46
Yeah, because we are going deeper. We're going deeper. So we got a nice overview, very detailed overview, and important overview. But we're going to look at the technology next. Because like I said, technology is happening, things are being created, they're being deployed, data is being generated, it's being used. What does that all mean? What are the technologies? How, how are they… Who's developing them, who's the beneficiary of those things? And what are what are the drivers behind those technologies being delivered? So a lot to explore there, Jonathan did another amazing job. We have Benson Chan, Renil Paramel, and Michael Pegues, joining us. And I get to do that with Jonathan. And we're going to dig deep into tech following that we'll get into society, the root and the real final impact. And who knows, maybe there'll be more conversations after that. But with that, I want to thank everybody, for participating today. For listening. I think there was a, there was a note from one of our guests that says “I think you'll find a lot in this session inspiring.” I completely agree with that. So thanks. Thanks for sharing that with us. And there's more coming. The Other Society is an option. Which one will we have? That is the question. We have the answers… but only if we think about it.
M. Ciappelli 58:08
It is out there, it is out there. Jonathan, we leave you the last… the last word, and we will see you all next time.
J. Reichental 58:18
Wonderful. Thank you all so much.
Outro [Voice Over] 58:24
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